Spin Time

[ebikeerwidnes]

Just watching the telly and a Reform bloke is on


As a retired teacher I would like to apologise to the country for all the times where I instructed the kids in my classes to hate their country

Clearly I was constantly doing this and forcing the poor children to believe the country is evil and they should be ashamed of it and everything it has ever done

Actually I can;t remember any of that but I am getting older so maybe my memory is a bit dodgy


In reality - I would be classed by Reform as Woke and it is a damned good job I started teaching after Section 28 was dumped and I would have had trouble with that
(I'm not gay BTW - but a lot of the kids often thought I was - for reasons that were unclear!!)

anyway - Reform said it so it must be true

 

[monkers]

Just watching the telly and a Reform bloke is on


As a retired teacher I would like to apologise to the country for all the times where I instructed the kids in my classes to hate their country

Clearly I was constantly doing this and forcing the poor children to believe the country is evil and they should be ashamed of it and everything it has ever done

Actually I can;t remember any of that but I am getting older so maybe my memory is a bit dodgy


In reality - I would be classed by Reform as Woke and it is a damned good job I started teaAching after Section 28 was dumped and I would have had trouble with that
(I'm not gay BTW - but a lot of the kids often thought I was - for reasons that were unclear!!)

anyway - Reform said it so it must be true

A male heterosexual teacher friend of mine has a similar difficulty. He handles it by telling every new class that he meets in his introduction, ''that I have a secret that I'll share with you as long as you don't tell anybody else'', then he camps it up for a while, until he is reminded that he hasn't told them his secret, then he reveals ''I was born in Essex''. Inevitably one class member will say, ''oh we thought you were going to tell us you are gay''. Then he says ''well I'm not gay, but I suspect my boyfriend might be''. Then they get his standard lecturette.

 

[CXRAndy]

It will be interesting to see how reform deal with issues in the controlling councils.

IF they begin to improve the basics whilst making some savings, it will throw the spot light back at Labour/Tory/Liberal councils.

 

[Rusty Nails]

It will be interesting to see how reform deal with issues in the controlling councils.

IF they begin to improve the basics whilst making some savings, it will throw the spot light back at Labour/Tory/Liberal councils.

As Trump is finding out making savings via cuts and sackings is easy. It is improving the basics, and the not so basics, that is the hard part.

I suspect that people have different views about what comprises "the basics".

 

[Stevo 666]

That would take a very long essay indeed. See Gary Stevenson. See also UK land ownership. While people may squabble over arguments that a country is the land it occupies, or the people within it, billionaires want control of both of those plus the money. Like Trump they want to live as kings.

Transactions were once made through a bartering system. Later tokens were added to provide a method of fairer trading. You can have my pig for two lambs and ten tokens etc. Money has been weaponised for social control, not just through tax. While slavery is abolished, servitude is not. In this modern age, consumers have become one commodity, money has become the other. The price of land means it is a commodity only available to the wealthy. We are returning to medieval feudal and baronial times.

We can look at the attitudes of Conservatives, Labour, and Reform - none seek to change the model. Farage has just added a third option as a faster track to what the Tories and Labour offer. It is not resistance to either of them.

While Farage might be proven as gifted as a world class confidence trickster, there is no evidence that he has the skill to make the UK as successful country, or that he will fulfill his promise to improve the lives of ordinary people.

Time for a round of leftie mythbsters I reckon.

Let's start with your assertion about billionaires avoiding tax. First off, here are HMRC's own figures for the annual 'tax gap' for the last year they have published. The tax gap is the difference between the total tax that would be paid in an ideal world where everyone paid everything they estimate is due and what is actually collected:
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/measuring-tax-gaps/1-tax-gaps-summary

As you will see, they break it into categories of taxpayer ('customer') in figure 1.4. The wealthy account for just 5% of the tax gap (wealthy is not billionaires and their share is not all avoidance either), so in the natonal scheme of things a small amount. Whereas small businesses account for 60% of the tax gap. So you're barking up the wrong tree on that one for starters. And if you're wrong on that bit...

 

[monkers]

Time for a round of leftie mythbsters I reckon.

Let's start with your assertion about billionaires avoiding tax. First off, here are HMRC's own figures for the annual 'tax gap' for the last year they have published. The tax gap is the difference between the total tax that would be paid in an ideal world where everyone paid everything they estimate is due and what is actually collected:
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/measuring-tax-gaps/1-tax-gaps-summary

As you will see, they break it into categories of taxpayer ('customer') in figure 1.4. The wealthy account for just 5% of the tax gap (wealthy is not billionaires and their share is not all avoidance either), so in the natonal scheme of things a small amount. Whereas small businesses account for 60% of the tax gap. So you're barking up the wrong tree on that one for starters. And if you're wrong on that bit...

Time for some ultra-righty myth busting I reckon. I'm happy to look at your document later - only it doesn't address the content of my post.

In reply I'll ask you to read this with numbers relating to the year 2017 alone ...

• The 50 largest US companies used a secretive network of 1751 subsidiaries in tax havens to stash about $1.6 trillion offshore in 2015. The companies reported an additional 143 tax haven subsidiaries and $200 billion in offshore earnings compared to 2014.
• Tax reforms proposed by President Trump and leaders in Congress could give these 50 companies a windfall of between $312 and $327 billion on the profits they hold offshore, in addition to massive financial benefits resulting from a dramatic cut in corporate rates and other more favorable tax treatments.
• The 50 companies spent $2.5 billion lobbying the US government between 2009 and 2015. An estimated $352 million was spent lobbying on tax issues – helping to secure over $423 billion in tax breaks. Oxfam estimates that for every $1 these companies spent lobbying on tax, they received an estimated $1,200 in tax breaks.
• Five companies, General Electric, Verizon Communications, Comcast, AT&T and Exxon Mobil, account for approximately a quarter of all lobbying on tax by the top 50 companies.
• On average these 50 companies are members of at least two coalitions lobbying for more favorable tax treatment, with eight of the 50 companies being members of four or more coalitions. Wal-Mart leads the way as a member of at least six separate coalitions seeking to influence tax policy.

https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/cash-stashed-offshore-top-50-us-companies-jumps-16-trillion

Later we'll have a meeting of minds to consider the extend of the damage when tax gaps are reported as a 'mere' (sarcasm intended) £36bn per year.

The British workforce has about 36.9 million workers. By use of averages, and setting aside any limitations of strict application, this means that each tax payer in that workforce becomes obliged to cover £1000 each year to cover the shortfall. I'm sure many people will be angry to see that.

The other thing of note is that a document such as the one you provide does not consider the moral question.

Another issue is that despite the promise of trickle down, living standards are dropping while reported billionaire wealth rockets.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Time for some ultra-righty myth busting I reckon. I'm happy to look at your document later - only it doesn't address the content of my post.

In reply I'll ask you to read this with numbers relating to the year 2017 alone ...



https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/cash-stashed-offshore-top-50-us-companies-jumps-16-trillion

Later we'll have a meeting of minds to consider the extend of the damage when tax gaps are reported as a 'mere' (sarcasm intended) £36bn per year.

The British workforce has about 36.9 million workers. By use of averages, and setting aside any limitations of strict application, this means that each tax payer in that workforce becomes obliged to cover £1000 each year to cover the shortfall. I'm sure many people will be angry to see that.

The other thing of note is that a document such as the one you provide does not consider the moral question.

Another issue is that despite the promise of trickle down, living standards are dropping while reported billionaire wealth rockets.

There is also the issue of numbers involved. The value of unpaid tax by the wealthy is assessed as about 8% of that unpaid by small businesses, but I guarantee that the number of people classed as wealthy is many times less than 8% of the number of small businesses so a targetted approach to reducing the value of non-payment of tax by the wealthy will be much more cost effective per intervention.

 

[Stevo 666]

Time for some ultra-righty myth busting I reckon. I'm happy to look at your document later - only it doesn't address the content of my post.

In reply I'll ask you to read this with numbers relating to the year 2017 alone ...



https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/cash-stashed-offshore-top-50-us-companies-jumps-16-trillion

Later we'll have a meeting of minds to consider the extend of the damage when tax gaps are reported as a 'mere' (sarcasm intended) £36bn per year.

The British workforce has about 36.9 million workers. By use of averages, and setting aside any limitations of strict application, this means that each tax payer in that workforce becomes obliged to cover £1000 each year to cover the shortfall. I'm sure many people will be angry to see that.

The other thing of note is that a document such as the one you provide does not consider the moral question.

Another issue is that despite the promise of trickle down, living standards are dropping while reported billionaire wealth rockets.

My reply addresses one aspect - tax avoidance by the ultra rich. Or rather relative lack of it. As mentioned, the majority is by small businesses so you'd do better to direct you ire at them. And its not just workers who are impacted, it's businesses as well - who contribute substantially to the £800bn+ a year tax burden. Although worth noting that the UK stats for percentage of tax collected is actually pretty good compared to quite a few countries.

Unfortunately the rest of your reply was more of a diatribe about the evils of capitalism. Unfortunately unless you go off grid to live in some hippy commune or emigrate to say North Korea then its a fact of life. But for all of its imperfections, if there was a better system then it would be in widespread use by now.

As for morals - who gets to decide? you cant have some random cyclist on the internet deciding how much eveyone should pay, just wouldn't work. That what the law is there for.

Living standards - quite possibly impacted by very high tax bills...

 

[Stevo 666]

There is also the issue of numbers involved. The value of unpaid tax by the wealthy is assessed as about 8% of that unpaid by small businesses, but I guarantee that the number of people classed as wealthy is many times less than 8% of the number of small businesses so a targetted approach to reducing the value of non-payment of tax by the wealthy will be much more cost effective per intervention.

What makes you think that HMRC don't already put significant resources into addressing that part of the tax gap?

 

[Rusty Nails]

What makes you think that HMRC don't already put significant resources into addressing that part of the tax gap?

Did I say they didn't?

 

[Ian H]

What makes you think that HMRC don't already put significant resources into addressing that part of the tax gap?

As documented by Private Eye: they mostly don't, and when they do they are surprisingly incompetent.

 

[Psamathe]

Let's start with your assertion about billionaires avoiding tax.

I appreciate it's not the aspect you and Monkers were discussing but for me it's also about UK tax policy. I consider that the wealthier should be paying significantly more as they have significantly higher disposable income.

Companies find weird ways to exploit tax laws. When I worked in the Netherlands fair time ago many Bank Holidays company executive would take a pile of cash and go round all employees giving us each €150 in notes (which was a lot given how long ago it was). Apparently the company made a profit from doing this through Dutch tax laws.

Every UK Government seems scared about raising taxation on those who can afford it without really affecting their standard of living. Threats of "I'll emigrate ... and UK will lose my investments" are believed by each Government who don't realise that investing overseas is as easy as investing in the UK and investors will put there money in whatever country meets their aims (income vs growth, security vs returns, etc.) so investors emigrating makes no difference to investment.

Ian

 

[monkers]

My reply addresses one aspect - tax avoidance by the ultra rich. Or rather relative lack of it. As mentioned, the majority is by small businesses so you'd do better to direct you ire at them. And its not just workers who are impacted, it's businesses as well - who contribute substantially to the £800bn+ a year tax burden. Although worth noting that the UK stats for percentage of tax collected is actually pretty good compared to quite a few countries.

Unfortunately the rest of your reply was more of a diatribe about the evils of capitalism. Unfortunately unless you go off grid to live in some hippy commune or emigrate to say North Korea then its a fact of life. But for all of its imperfections, if there was a better system then it would be in widespread use by now.

As for morals - who gets to decide? you cant have some random cyclist on the internet deciding how much eveyone should pay, just wouldn't work. That what the law is there for.

Living standards - quite possibly impacted by very high tax bills...

No it wasn't any kind of diatribe. Neither did I describe capitalism as an evil. I've noticed how the ultra-right swing heavily to hyperbole when truths are mentioned that they want hushed. I am not against trade or profit making. I'm against poverty especially in societies where money is aplenty. I'm also very much against liars.

There is great inequity in the UK leading to poverty including child poverty and pensioner poverty. If that tax gap of £36bn was eliminated then the money would be there to ensure that everybody can afford to eat.

You provided the data that shows this.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

It will be interesting to see how reform deal with issues in the controlling councils.

IF they begin to improve the basics whilst making some savings, it will throw the spot light back at Labour/Tory/Liberal councils.

That will be the interesting bit

IF they manage to do what they said AND keep the place running

or running as well as the previous lot anyway

Then they will have a case to say they are a valid party

If they make a total pig's ear of everything then they won;t

Like most parties the truth will be in between and different parties will put forward a different opinion

I will be intersted to see how things go

 

[CXRAndy]

Every UK Government seems scared about raising taxation on those who can afford it without really affecting their standard of living. Threats of "I'll emigrate ... and UK will lose my investments"

Around 30% of the total tax gathered is from the top 1% of earners.

If you piss them off, revenue can dramatically fall very quickly.