Starmer's vision quest

[Pross]

The ones from areas of French influence mostly stay in France. The ones from areas where English is the second language come to the UK. It's one of the consequences of having had an empire.

The whole "safe county" thing is just a standard response from those who realise it's a conevnient get out clause when living in a country that is safely isolated from the world's main conflict zones by the sea and a mainly safe continent. If there was war in Ireland and half the country fled to the UK you can guarantee the same people would be demanding that other countries take their 'fair share'. It's basically just a way of trying to justify not wanting to help. It also ignores that the UK is way down the list when it comes to the number of refugees it takes both in terms of absolute numbers and percentage per capita and that the "first safe country" trope just means those that border conflict zones would be even more overwhelmed. What we should be doing is making it easier for asylum applications to be made in those countries and then bringing those who are successful here legally. It would also make it fairer / easier to deal with those still coming on small boats.

 

[Pross]

Re: The Need For Radical Planning Changes.
Labour keep wittering on about how crucial it is for them to reduce scrutiny, reduce protections and ignore what little wildlife protections we have (given how devastated out wildlife is already).

Yet, their target is for 1.5 million homes by the end of the Parliament yet it now transpires there is currently planning permission already granted for 1.4 million homes.

So Labour's harping on about Planning and Wildlife being a blocking factor complete rubbish and they've just fallen sucker to lobbying from the developers who don't want to provide what society needs but what gives them highest profits and swells the value of their land banks.

We need and deserve better government that this.

Ian

Not necessarily. There's a difference between them having planning permission and being able to build. The planning permissions will come with Conditions and those may well include various ecological surveys or mitigation measures that could make building unviable. I work in a development related sector (consultancy not developer) and in my field it regularly takes a year or more to satisfy Conditions (not ecology related although it can sometimes have an impact). Of course there are developers that are just looking to avoid stuff that costs them time and money but many are reputable and do what's required. Some are even enlightened enough to realise the measures can enhance the desireability of their development.

That said, the biggest obstacle to getting things built is a lack of resources in the Councils plus maybe a lack of motivation with some of their workforce. It takes them far longer to check stuff than the consultants take producing the information in most cases.

 

[Pross]

I'm not an expert in how to deal with these things but for starters we could stop being so generous to illegal arrivals (hotel accommodation, benefits etc).

The massively generous benefits are less than £50 per person per week on a preloaded debit card to buy essentials like food and toiletries. If their accommodation provides meals they get £9.95 per week each. No wonder they are risking their lives flocking here in their masses, they'll probably save it all up before returning home.

 

[midlandsgrimpeur]

The massively generous benefits are less than £50 per person per week on a preloaded debit card to buy essentials like food and toiletries. If their accommodation provides meals they get £9.95 per week each. No wonder they are risking their lives flocking here in their masses, they'll probably save it all up before returning home.

Plus, they are not 'illegal' as per Stevo's reference, seeking Asylum is perfectly legal in any country that has signed up to the 1951 Refugee Convention.

I made this point on the old BR forum. Accomodation is by far the biggest cost to the public purse but the reason is that the decision making process is so slow which requires extended periods of stay, and was a deliberate consequence of Theresa May getting rid of HO processing staff in a futile attempt to dissuade people from seeking Asylum here.

 

[Stevo 666]

The massively generous benefits are less than £50 per person per week on a preloaded debit card to buy essentials like food and toiletries. If their accommodation provides meals they get £9.95 per week each. No wonder they are risking their lives flocking here in their masses, they'll probably save it all up before returning home.

What's the daily rate for hotel accommodation? And free healthcare, dental treatment etc?

 

[Stevo 666]

Plus, they are not 'illegal' as per Stevo's reference, seeking Asylum is perfectly legal in any country that has signed up to the 1951 Refugee Convention.

I made this point on the old BR forum. Accomodation is by far the biggest cost to the public purse but the reason is that the decision making process is so slow which requires extended periods of stay, and was a deliberate consequence of Theresa May getting rid of HO processing staff in a futile attempt to dissuade people from seeking Asylum here.

They are illegal if their asylum claim is rejected. Or if they don't claim asylum, but I would think most of them will have been told to claim asylum as soon as possible after arriving.

Either way, we need to reduce the numbers entering the UK in this way.

 

[Ian H]

They are illegal if their asylum claim is rejected. Or if they don't claim asylum, but I would think most of them will have been told to claim asylum as soon as possible after arriving.

Either way, we need to reduce the numbers entering the UK in this way.

In what way should these number arrive?
It would make sense to provide safe ways to enter the country. Apart from anything it would put a lot of people-smugglers out of business.

 

[Pblakeney]

In what way should these number arrive?
It would make sense to provide safe ways to enter the country. Apart from anything it would put a lot of people-smugglers out of business.

Unfortunately you are debating with people who think the amount of refugees (regardless of transit method) should be zero.

 

[CXRAndy]

Labour take Scottish by-election by a sniff from SNP and Reform.

Marginal seat for 3 parties now

Conservatives came nowhere

 

[Bromptonaut]

I find that is the problem with good ideas, someone else has usually thought of them first 😂

To the best of my knowledge, and, despite the claims on here, there is no reliable data as to the proportion of migrants who are Asylum seekers, vs, economic immigrants. I am not expressing a view either way. However, if the number of economic migrants is significant, the people smugglers may still have a business, transporting those who are refused entry via the "legal" (and free) route. I do recall reading (although I have been unable to find the article online) that at least one of those drowned, in an early rubber boat incident, was a young lady who was wishing to enter UK to "be with her boyfriend", the article claimed that she was simply too impatient to wait for a visa, rather than being likely to be refused entry. I think the article was on the BBC website, and, there were interviews with the unfortunate young lady's parents, on BBC News, confirming the story.

Maybe, she was just a very unlucky individual, or, maybe she was the tip of an iceberg. Without accurate and impartial data, it is impossible to say.

I suspect there is data but it's not conclusive. There are certainly refugee/migrant studies that include people's motivations for coming to the UK. Family or clan, existing communities here, the English language and our reputation as a fair society are all part of the mix.

If they're solely here for opportunity/economic reasons then they're likely to be filtered out by the system and refused Asylum.

The reality is that to present the question as binary is false; the options are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Pross]

What's the daily rate for hotel accommodation? And free healthcare, dental treatment etc?

Don’t know on the hotels but I doubt anyone is risking their lives coming here to be put up in the old pub 200m from me along with people just released from prison. It’s not exactly The Ritz. As pointed out the bill is far higher than it needs to be because the ‘tough on immigration’ Tories cut the number of staff processing applications. They also sounded a huge amount on the Rwanda scheme that could have been used to build specialist facilities in their 14 years in charge.

As for health and dental care, surely they’re just basic human rights? The totals will be a drop in the ocean compared to the NHS budget.

 

[CXRAndy]

As for health and dental care, surely they’re just basic human rights? The totals will be a drop in the ocean compared to the NHS budget

If course they are, BUT when immigrants get instant access from private care (which the British taxpayer is footing the bill) to health and dental care when British people can't get on dentists registers or see a GP for weeks, it stinks.


View: https://x.com/byapptto/status/1856087694679638351?t=d5AggKb4d7njcX5_HyDQjw&s=19

 

[bobzmyunkle]

oh, Jeremy Corbyn (Could have put this in the Israel thread, but it's a reflection on Starmer's abject failure)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnonxJ0D_iM

 

[BoldonLad]

I suspect there is data but it's not conclusive. There are certainly refugee/migrant studies that include people's motivations for coming to the UK. Family or clan, existing communities here, the English language and our reputation as a fair society are all part of the mix.

If they're solely here for opportunity/economic reasons then they're likely to be filtered out by the system and refused Asylum.

The reality is that to present the question as binary is false; the options are not mutually exclusive.

I think, you are agreeing with me. 😂

Among the half dozen of my daughter's work colleagues, who have all "passed" the Asylum test, there are a couple of "questionable" stories. But, since they are all living in "dubious" parts of Sunderland I do wonder just what if anything they have gained.

 

[matticus]

If course they are, BUT when immigrants get instant access from private care (which the British taxpayer is footing the bill) to health and dental care when British people can't get on dentists registers or see a GP for weeks, it stinks.

What sort of smell are you thinking of here?