Starmer's vision quest

[briantrumpet]

Excellent conspiracy theory is an oxymoron.

I only think the fuel duty escalator is reasonable if there is an alternative. we are getting there, but consumers are still being pricey gouged out of EVs.

Somewhat like the disc brakes debate, for the most part only very large heavy ones are being made, which needs big and expensive batteries. They really should be 2/3 the size (i.e. not SUVs), 3/4 the weight and 80% of the cost. It is.

Or a conspiracy theory to figure out why that's not the case.

Maybe the EV price per mile should also be proportional to the weight of the vehicle: reward the small ones, penalise the bigguns.

 

[First Aspect]

Maybe the EV price per mile should also be proportional to the weight of the vehicle: reward the small ones, penalise the bigguns.

It would add complexity, but I would agree with this approach.

 

[AuroraSaab]

That would discourage many from going ev though. Long ranges need big/more batteries and they are heavy. You do need to plan a bit if you want a short range ev as an everyday car and not everyone will want that inconvenience.

 

[briantrumpet]

It would add complexity, but I would agree with this approach.

Carrot & stick approach.

 

[icowden]

Maybe the EV price per mile should also be proportional to the weight of the vehicle: reward the small ones, penalise the bigguns.

It looks good on paper but it will mean that if you have a family and therefore higher costs due to raising kids, you should pay more. But pensioners and single people should pay less?

The only time the weight thing works is if you skew it to the very high end luxury EV market and even then it's hit and miss.

 

[First Aspect]

It looks good on paper but it will mean that if you have a family and therefore higher costs due to raising kids, you should pay more. But pensioners and single people should pay less?

The only time the weight thing works is if you skew it to the very high end luxury EV market and even then it's hit and miss.

The space inside an SUV differs from the space inside a saloon car only in terms of it's height off the ground. And frankly you can get a family of 4 into something the size of an original Ford Escort, or smaller. There used to be these things called estate cars with extra cargo space for minimal additional mass, for people with that specific need.

If you do have a huge family and need a minivan or something like that, I don't see why the rest of the society needs to subsidise the family taxi. Either use a condom or pay for them.

 

[briantrumpet]

The space inside an SUV differs from the space inside a saloon car only in terms of it's height off the ground. And frankly you can get a family of 4 into something the size of an original Ford Escort, or smaller. There used to be these things called estate cars with extra cargo space for minimal additional mass, for people with that specific need.

If you do have a huge family and need a minivan or something like that, I don't see why the rest of the society needs to subsidise the family taxi. Either use a condom or pay for them.

Zackly. There *should* be a price to pay for choosing a bloated 4/5 seater car, so that the manufacturers have an incentive to offer less-bloated models.

 

[icowden]

The space inside an SUV differs from the space inside a saloon car only in terms of it's height off the ground

That just isn't true. Try getting suitcases and a pushchair inside the boot of a saloon when you go and visit granny and grandad for a week.
Also, how many EV saloons can you list?

The fact is that the SUV shape has become pretty much ubiquitous. The only alternative in EV world is a hatchback.

And frankly you can get a family of 4 into something the size of an original Ford Escort, or smaller. There used to be these things called estate cars with extra cargo space for minimal additional mass, for people with that specific need.

There are a few EV estates - they are really big, expensive and er... heavy.

If you do have a huge family and need a minivan or something like that, I don't see why the rest of the society needs to subsidise the family taxi. Either use a condom or pay for them.

Not suggesting a minivan. Just that you won't find a light family sized EV.

 

[briantrumpet]

Not suggesting a minivan. Just that you won't find a light family sized EV.

I'd suggest that's a failure of the market. There should be choices, and if the manufacturers are determined to push for ever more bloated cars, then the carrot/stick approach of using taxes to encourage smaller vehicles should be deployed.

I was given a lift in a fairly modern Volvo estate recently, and it was Tardis-like, especially compared with modern SUVs: took five adults comfortably, plus a pile of musical instruments in the back.

 

[First Aspect]

That just isn't true. Try getting suitcases and a pushchair inside the boot of a saloon when you go and visit granny and grandad for a week.
Also, how many EV saloons can you list?

The fact is that the SUV shape has become pretty much ubiquitous. The only alternative in EV world is a hatchback.


There are a few EV estates - they are really big, expensive and er... heavy.


Not suggesting a minivan. Just that you won't find a light family sized EV.

Hatchback. Saloon. Who cares. Both small.

If you don't like lifting suitcases in an out of a lower car, pay for a higher one. Yourself.

Been on enough family holidays as a kid, and owned enough cars myself, to put into context what one "needs" in a car.

Battery packs are about 3 inches tall. I don't think this explains why you can only build SUVs with them.

As above, we are being fed SUVs because there is market demand for them, and this is being self compounded by a lack of alternatives. Hence my analogy to disc brakes.

Tax the ahit out of them in comparison to a smaller and lighter alternative and the market shall provide. They exist in other places, as to vehicles such as K- cars devised in response to regulations.

 

[BoldonLad]

Mileage is recorded at every MOT. Smart move would be to exempt new EVs from the charge as this would reduce impact in EV uptake, and just make it part of the MOT process.

A new way to tax driving has to happen at some point. It is not one of her worst ideas.

I would be very surprised if most, if not all, EVs (and many modern ICE/Hybrid vehicles) do not already record mileage covered in their onboard systems.

 

[First Aspect]

I would be very surprised if most, if not all, EVs (and many modern ICE/Hybrid vehicles) do not already record mileage covered in their onboard systems.

Yup. There are privacy issues perhaps, but let's face it that ship sailed a while ago.

 

[icowden]

Hatchback. Saloon. Who cares. Both small.
If you don't like lifting suitcases in an out of a lower car, pay for a higher one. Yourself.

Nothing to do with height. An e-fiat has a 185 litre boot. An electric mini countryman has 460 litres. My ID4 has 543 litres. It has sufficient length that I can get a keyboard in for gigging and enough space to get all the gumph in when we visit the in laws.

Tax the ahit out of them in comparison to a smaller and lighter alternative and the market shall provide. They exist in other places, as to vehicles such as K- cars devised in response to regulations.

Ah - so kill the EV market to make them build different cars. How are you going to achieve no new EV sales by 2035 if you make 90% of EVs unaffordable?

 

[BoldonLad]

I'd suggest that's a failure of the market. There should be choices, and if the manufacturers are determined to push for ever more bloated cars, then the carrot/stick approach of using taxes to encourage smaller vehicles should be deployed.

I was given a lift in a fairly modern Volvo estate recently, and it was Tardis-like, especially compared with modern SUVs: took five adults comfortably, plus a pile of musical instruments in the back.

Perhaps it is not a failure of the market, but, rather the market in action. Small cars ARE available, but, lots of people want large cars, as far as I am aware the purchase of a large car is not compulsory? The other factor is that the market (in terms of individuals) is already skewed by Fleet buyers of one form or another.

 

[First Aspect]

Nothing to do with height. An e-fiat has a 185 litre boot. An electric mini countryman has 460 litres. My ID4 has 543 litres. It has sufficient length that I can get a keyboard in for gigging and enough space to get all the gumph in when we visit the in laws.



Ah - so kill the EV market to make them build different cars. How are you going to achieve no new EV sales by 2035 if you make 90% of EVs unaffordable?

No, kill the unecessarily large car market. I don't much care how said cars are propelled.

Would you like a tax rebate for your keyboard transportation needs now? If you need a large car, okay, but it was the batshit notion that this unfairly penalised people with large families that I was replying to. As someone who travelled up and down the country in a 1985 Ford cortina, a Hillman avenger and a Super minx, and who has successfully recovered from using the back seat of an original Fiat panda, I can confirm that the "need" for a 5 metre long 2 metre wide 2.3 ton vehicle is over stated.