Starmer's vision quest

[Rusty Nails]

Maybe I started before you 😂

You clearly did.

 

[Ian H]

Maybe I started before you 😂

You started... but are you going to finish?

 

[BoldonLad]

You started... but are you going to finish?

Everybody finishes 😂

 

[Stevo 666]

Well of course not. It also isn't happening. It's made up.

Net migration reached a high of 906,000 in the year ending June 2023. However, it subsequently decreased to 728,000 in the year ending June 2024.

And of course that migration is almost all legal and government approved. It has nothing to do with the people desperately seeking asylum. In YE June 2024 84,000 people claimed asylum successfully but that number includes those arriving via regular routes as well. The peak was created by the new immigration system after leaving the EU and was entirely due to Conservative policies, although a lot of the bump is migration that was deferred due to Covid.

What is made up?

 

[icowden]

What is made up?

Your statistic about adding the population of manchester to the country each year.

 

[AuroraSaab]

https://www.gov.uk/government/speec...tion-white-paper-press-conference-12-may-2025

According to Starmer it's Birmingham, which is actually a bit bigger than Manchester.

 

[Dorset Boy]

Your statistic about adding the population of manchester to the country each year.

Manchester is c600,000 population.
So are you saying net migration isn't / hasn't been around 600,000 pa?
The comparison is valid.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

Manchester is c600,000 population.
So are you saying net migration isn't / hasn't been around 600,000 pa?
The comparison is valid.

And a lot of people will equate Manchester with greater Manchester so the fear factor is increased. It's still a vast number though.

 

[AuroraSaab]

And most won't. The bill isn't about most, it's about some.

Surprising then that there don't seem to be any disability rights groups in favour of it. They all feel it will turn into a slippery slope - as it has in other countries - and lead to ill and disabled people feeling the pressure of being a burden to society.

Btw, 'terminally ill' means anyone who will die within 6 months without treatment, which could include anorexics, people on dialysis, or diabetics for example. Other countries have widened the definition without a law change being necessary.

This law isn't a danger to those with a loving family, who can advocate for them, provide support, push for good palliative care, but it's a dogs dinner of a bill with far too little analysis of unintended consequences for those without that. Safeguard after safeguard has been vetoed.

The Royal College of Psychiatrists have now also withdrawn support.

If it's passed that's where NHS investment will go, into helping people die, not into helping them to live pain free and with dignity, which is where it should be going, so that any choice on assisted dying is genuinely freely made.

 

[AuroraSaab]

We have a shortage of GPs because fewer people want to do it and we have an ageing population of GPs many of whom are now at or approaching retirement age.

Lots of new GP's can't actually get places in practises due to funding and physical space. I don't think there's a shortage of candidates.

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/analys...t-enough-money-why-gp-practices-cant-recruit/

 

[Stevo 666]

Your statistic about adding the population of manchester to the country each year.

I'm confused by your statement. The immigration figure for the last full year to end of June 2024 was over 700,000 and the city of Manchester has a population of approx 600,000.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

If it's passed that's where NHS investment will go, into helping people die, not into helping them to live pain free and with dignity, which is where it should be going, so that any choice on assisted dying is genuinely freely made.

Can I have the choice please? And who decides what this dignity is you refer to?

 

[C R]

Surprising then that there don't seem to be any disability rights groups in favour of it. They all feel it will turn into a slippery slope - as it has in other countries - and lead to ill and disabled people feeling the pressure of being a burden to society.

Btw, 'terminally ill' means anyone who will die within 6 months without treatment, which could include anorexics, people on dialysis, or diabetics for example. Other countries have widened the definition without a law change being necessary.

This law isn't a danger to those with a loving family, who can advocate for them, provide support, push for good palliative care, but it's a dogs dinner of a bill with far too little analysis of unintended consequences for those without that. Safeguard after safeguard has been vetoed.

The Royal College of Psychiatrists have now also withdrawn support.

If it's passed that's where NHS investment will go, into helping people die, not into helping them to live pain free and with dignity, which is where it should be going, so that any choice on assisted dying is genuinely freely made.

You should really watch The Sea Inside.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Can I have the choice please? And who decides what this dignity is you refer to?

Yes, you should have a choice, within limits. I'm not against assisted dying per se. In fact we have it to some extent already. I'm against a bill that is as poorly constructed and ill considered as this one.

As to dignity, we should come to a reasonable consensus as a society as to what it means if we are going to expect the state to assist us to kill ourselves because we don't have it. Some people might think living life in a wheelchair or with blindness means no dignity for them. Would we want assisted dying available for the blind?

It's a sign of society's failure that we see it as undignified to need a high level of help with an illness or disability, or that people who need high amounts of intimate care are viewed as living undignified lives.

 

[First Aspect]

Population/immigration comparisons such as Manchester or Birmingham are akin to measuring volume in units of olympic sized swimming pools, or distance in units of football pitches.