Starmer's vision quest

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Xipe Totec

Something nasty in the woodshed
If they dare let them take place

You'll be relieved to know that's not a decision they can take. Our rights under ECHR regulations entitle us to "participate in free & fair elections" (protocol 1, article 3). So it will take you and your roundabout-painting, bin-burning moron chums to remove those rights from us, by voting in the extreme-right nutbag fascist psychopath parties that you and the UK media appear to love so much.

So on that note, I'm looking forward to exercising my democratic right in the last-ever Holyrood election come May. Maybe I'll vote for a Nazi, just for a laugh.
 
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CXRAndy

Pharaoh
You'll be relieved to know that's not a decision they can take. Our rights under ECHR regulations entitle us to "participate in free & fair elections" (protocol 1, article 3). So it will take you and your roundabout-painting, bin-burning moron chums to remove those rights from us, by voting in the extreme-right nutbag fascist psychopath parties that you and the UK media appear to love so much.

So on that note, I'm looking forward to exercising my democratic right in the last-ever Holyrood election come May. Maybe I'll vote for a Nazi, just for a laugh.

I won't be at all surprised if multiple English councils postpone local elections next May.
 
You'll be relieved to know that's not a decision they can take. Our rights under ECHR regulations entitle us to "participate in free & fair elections" (protocol 1, article 3). So it will take you and your roundabout-painting, bin-burning moron chums to remove those rights from us, by voting in the extreme-right nutbag fascist psychopath parties that you and the UK media appear to love so much.

So on that note, I'm looking forward to exercising my democratic right in the last-ever Holyrood election come May. Maybe I'll vote for a Nazi, just for a laugh.

So, once the SNP wins a majority, gets a referendum and wins it,.where will you make the required 20% cuts in public spending? Or is the plan to join the EU and ask them for it under Le Barnét Formule?
 

C R

Guru
I intensly dislike that local authority reorganisations stop our democratic rights. Politicians decided to reotganise and then that means we don't get a vote (or delayed). Central core of our democracy is that if they are not doing what we want we can vote them out of office ... until they decided to reorganise themselves which makes us powerless.

Oh, this particular reorganisation is a badly thought out mess, and the suspension of elections while it is being sorted out is ridiculous, I agree.

My point was that the delayed elections have been known for a while, and has nothing to do with Starmer suddenly deciding to cancel local elections because he will loose, which seems to be what reform supporting morons are now propagating.
 

Rusty Nails

Country Member
Oh, this particular reorganisation is a badly thought out mess, and the suspension of elections while it is being sorted out is ridiculous, I agree.

My point was that the delayed elections have been known for a while, and has nothing to do with Starmer suddenly deciding to cancel local elections because he will loose, which seems to be what reform supporting morons are now propagating.

They know that…but facts are so inconvenient when you are trying to spin a lie.
 

Xipe Totec

Something nasty in the woodshed
So, once the SNP wins a majority, gets a referendum and wins it,.where will you make the required 20% cuts in public spending? Or is the plan to join the EU and ask them for it under Le Barnét Formule?

Sorry to undermine that achingly condescending little snark, but you evidently misunderstand my comment. Possibly wilfully.

The SNP absolutely won't win a majority. Statistically the freak 2011 vote was apparently a 0.5% probability, and a consequence of voting patterns that are pretty much the opposite of the idiotic SNP 1&2 that Swinney, the Toothless Labrador Of Scottish Independence is pushing as his genius strategy. The political climate & landscape in which that result happened was wildly different to the present day.

Next year, once the anti-SNP election machine swings into febrile action, their current fragile popularity will be bludgeoned back down just as it was in June last year, aided by one final, dying convulsion of Operation Branchform in the shape of Peter Murrell's incredibly high-profile trial which will be all over every Scottish paper, news bulletin & Unionist social media account in the weeks before the election.

I think they'll be lucky to cling on to Holyrood, maybe propped up by the Greens if enough people are sane enough to vote SNP 1, Green 2 - but there's a strong possibility of First Minister Anas Sarwar, backed by a bunch of Labour, Tory & Reform list grifters, all banding together to 'keep the Nats out', much as Labour & Tories like to do in various Scottish councils.

And of course these are all the proverbial turkeys voting for Christmas, parties who would all like to see the back of Holyrood - Labour call it 'Blair's Biggest Mistake', and it continues to be a massive thorn in their side in many different ways. Reform & the Tories are specifically Anglocentric parties, both of which are pushing to take the UK out of the ECHR - which inconveniently underpins Scotland's devolution settlement. In the event the SNP did manage to form a government, Reform winning Westminster a couple of years later means devolution, and Holyrood with it, could be voted away in an afternoon. Particularly if Farage is looking at Trump as an example of how 'democracy' should be exercised.

And while we're mentioning that ephemeral and increasingly absurd concept - if that 1 in 200 chance of an SNP overall majority does come off - what then? Swinney's convinced himself - or is pretending he has - that Starmer will be forced to concede a referendum. This is, unfortunately delusional, gaslighting bollocks. Starmer's repeatedly been adamant that there are no circumstances whatsoever under which he will grant a Section 30 order for a referendum. So he'll just say no again. And again. And again.

There are some increasingly desperate Indy supporters who claim that the decision of a UK PM 15 years ago, following that freak Holyrood result, establishes some sort of legal precedent - it'll be a nasty shock for them when they find out about that principle of UK parliamentary sovereignty which says no government is bound by the actions or legislation of a previous one.

So there'll be no Holyrood majority, no second independence referendum - and in the timeline we appear to have slipped into, no Scottish Parliament in a few years if the bastards get their way.

I hope that clears that up. :smile:
 
Sorry to undermine that achingly condescending little snark, but you evidently misunderstand my comment. Possibly wilfully.

The SNP absolutely won't win a majority. Statistically the freak 2011 vote was apparently a 0.5% probability, and a consequence of voting patterns that are pretty much the opposite of the idiotic SNP 1&2 that Swinney, the Toothless Labrador Of Scottish Independence is pushing as his genius strategy. The political climate & landscape in which that result happened was wildly different to the present day.

Next year, once the anti-SNP election machine swings into febrile action, their current fragile popularity will be bludgeoned back down just as it was in June last year, aided by one final, dying convulsion of Operation Branchform in the shape of Peter Murrell's incredibly high-profile trial which will be all over every Scottish paper, news bulletin & Unionist social media account in the weeks before the election.

I think they'll be lucky to cling on to Holyrood, maybe propped up by the Greens if enough people are sane enough to vote SNP 1, Green 2 - but there's a strong possibility of First Minister Anas Sarwar, backed by a bunch of Labour, Tory & Reform list grifters, all banding together to 'keep the Nats out', much as Labour & Tories like to do in various Scottish councils.

And of course these are all the proverbial turkeys voting for Christmas, parties who would all like to see the back of Holyrood - Labour call it 'Blair's Biggest Mistake', and it continues to be a massive thorn in their side in many different ways. Reform & the Tories are specifically Anglocentric parties, both of which are pushing to take the UK out of the ECHR - which inconveniently underpins Scotland's devolution settlement. In the event the SNP did manage to form a government, Reform winning Westminster a couple of years later means devolution, and Holyrood with it, could be voted away in an afternoon. Particularly if Farage is looking at Trump as an example of how 'democracy' should be exercised.

And while we're mentioning that ephemeral and increasingly absurd concept - if that 1 in 200 chance of an SNP overall majority does come off - what then? Swinney's convinced himself - or is pretending he has - that Starmer will be forced to concede a referendum. This is, unfortunately delusional, gaslighting bollocks. Starmer's repeatedly been adamant that there are no circumstances whatsoever under which he will grant a Section 30 order for a referendum. So he'll just say no again. And again. And again.

There are some increasingly desperate Indy supporters who claim that the decision of a UK PM 15 years ago, following that freak Holyrood result, establishes some sort of legal precedent - it'll be a nasty shock for them when they find out about that principle of UK parliamentary sovereignty which says no government is bound by the actions or legislation of a previous one.

So there'll be no Holyrood majority, no second independence referendum - and in the timeline we appear to have slipped into, no Scottish Parliament in a few years if the bastards get their way.

I hope that clears that up. :smile:
The SNP will be the major party and either in minority government or a fragile coalition.

The major oddity about the rest of what you say is the notion that somehow without an overwhelming mandate somehow the independence movement can progress to a referendum.

It doesn't seem to work both ways, and you honestly wouldnt know based on noise levels that support has consistently been below 50% for the past 11 years.
 

CXRAndy

Pharaoh
This is what every victim should do for the horrific pakistani rape gang scandal.

Private prosecutions


View: https://x.com/Basil_TGMD/status/1982444136444645683?t=VXxAHuOoBw-giBk-5pT2YQ&s=19
 

Xipe Totec

Something nasty in the woodshed
The SNP will be the major party and either in minority government or a fragile coalition.

The major oddity about the rest of what you say is the notion that somehow without an overwhelming mandate somehow the independence movement can progress to a referendum.

It doesn't seem to work both ways, and you honestly wouldnt know based on noise levels that support has consistently been below 50% for the past 11 years.

Did you read what I said? Admittedly I did bang on a bit - but to be clear, overwhelming mandate or not, there absolutely isn't a route to a second referendum, barring fantasy scenarios like a Green or Your Party Westminster government.

If Scotland is to become independent, I don't know what the process will be - but it won't be a referendum.
 
Did you read what I said? Admittedly I did bang on a bit - but to be clear, overwhelming mandate or not, there absolutely isn't a route to a second referendum, barring fantasy scenarios like a Green or Your Party Westminster government.

If Scotland is to become independent, I don't know what the process will be - but it won't be a referendum.
I did, but you seem aggrieved at something that in reality is absolutely fair and reasonable.

I also wanted to pick up on your accusation of gaslighting. The definition of that term does not encompass merely not getting the answer you want.

If does however potentially include creating a false grievance about it.

The reason, incidentally, that the Murrell trial is significant is because if you can't run a small political party, how are you possibly going to be able to run a whole country?

I am interested in hearing you thoughts on non democratic routes to independence.
 

AndyRM

Elder Goth
Did you read what I said? Admittedly I did bang on a bit - but to be clear, overwhelming mandate or not, there absolutely isn't a route to a second referendum, barring fantasy scenarios like a Green or Your Party Westminster government.

If Scotland is to become independent, I don't know what the process will be - but it won't be a referendum.

Come the uprising, I think we should move the wall slightly so that Carlisle and Newcastle can be included in Caledonia.
 

Xipe Totec

Something nasty in the woodshed
Considering current polling, it's consistently been in the low 50s in favour of independence over the last 5 years or so, typically using unrepresentative weighting models that reflect the 2014 demographic.

I don't have the figures to hand but at the point when Cameron granted the S30 for the last vote, it was in the high 20s to low 30s. That being the reason he was willing to allow it, dodgy little gambler that he was.
 
I think this is a good take on where Starmer is.

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https://www.linestotake.com/p/the-median-voter-isnt-a-labourreform
 
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