Starmer's vision quest

[Psamathe]

Do you fancy the job of Chancellor of the Exchequer?

The "Could you do better?" is an point I don't accept. We pay others for their expertise and expect them to do a competent job. If a surgeon messes-up an operation we hold him to account even though the patient would have suffered a lot worse than the surgeon's botched job.

People criticise their favourite team's goalkeeper for a bad match despite that they could never have stopped anything in the same position.

Same with Chancellor, it is reasonable to expect competency even though one might not be able to do the same. In a similar way I can do some things better than any of our Chancellors.

Nature of specialisation and reasonable expectations.

 

[secretsqirrel]

The "Could you do better?" is an point I don't accept. We pay others for their expertise and expect them to do a competent job. If a surgeon messes-up an operation we hold him to account even though the patient would have suffered a lot worse than the surgeon's botched job.

People criticise their favourite team's goalkeeper for a bad match despite that they could never have stopped anything in the same position.

Same with Chancellor, it is reasonable to expect competency even though one might not be able to do the same. In a similar way I can do some things better than any of our Chancellors.

Nature of specialisation and reasonable expectations.

I didn’t ask that.

You just seem to have a perfect handle on the issues.

 

[Psamathe]

No one in the real world cares about the manifesto.

I think they do, at least in deciding who to vote for in a General Election.

If I go to a new car dealership and salesman sells me a car that does 0-60 in 3 seconds and top speed of 180 mph and I get home find my new Fiesta 1300 takes 10 nims to get 0-60 with a top speed of 75 mph I go back to the dealership and am told "Well speed limits max at 70 and so much traffic ...". I was misled and they took my money under false pretences and I'll get my money back.

Can we have our votes back when we vote based of false pretences/lies?

 

[First Aspect]

I think they do, at least in deciding who to vote for in a General Election.

If I go to a new car dealership and salesman sells me a car that does 0-60 in 3 seconds and top speed of 180 mph and I get home find my new Fiesta 1300 takes 10 nims to get 0-60 with a top speed of 75 mph I go back to the dealership and am told "Well speed limits max at 70 and so much traffic ...". I was misled and they took my money under false pretences and I'll get my money back.

Can we have our votes back when we vote based of false pretences/lies?

Your vote has a 5 year free returns guarantee.

Except for Brexit, where we dispensed with all that bureaucratic EU consumer protection nonsense.

 

[Psamathe]

Manifestos do have special and important status in our legislature. Legislation that was in the Government's election manifesto will not be subject to the same scrutiny and amendments by the House of Lords (Salisbury-Addison Convention?).

Either they are important and have "status" and impact on our legslative process/scrutiny or they are a pack of lies. Can't be both.

All parties ignore the former, and all parties do the latter.
So, the latter.

In which case the House of Lords should abandon the Salisbury-Addison Convention and start properly scrutinising and amending legislation from manifesto pledges. But as Parliament expects the special status of manifesto based legislation then those politicians should start taking their own manifestos seriously.

 

[Pross]

We’ll still be paying for the pandemic for sometime to come too. Don’t recall Johnson Sunak mentioning furlough, eating out, vaccines etc will have to be paid for by a future government.
Not say it was wrong to spend that money but the cost was somewhat glossed over at the time.

All foreseeable of course..

It's why it was a complete mystery why Labour didn't just say "we can't rule out tax rises as we have all this debt the Tories have racked up and also need to fix our broken infrastructure". They'd have still won with a landslide and wouldn't have had to renege on their pledges. I was genuinely baffled at the time why they did this as it was obvious they would find themselves in this position. Even the Tory government had realised taxes were going to have to increase and had even announced some, they only reversed them when the election was coming and I suspect it was as a deliberate trap knowing they were going to lose rather than the usual pre-election tax give away / bribe.

 

[Psamathe]

It's why it was a complete mystery why Labour didn't just say "we can't rule out tax rises as we have all this debt the Tories have racked up and also need to fix our broken infrastructure". They'd have still won with a landslide and wouldn't have had to renege on their pledges. I was genuinely baffled at the time why they did this as it was obvious they would find themselves in this position. Even the Tory government had realised taxes were going to have to increase and had even announced some, they only reversed them when the election was coming and I suspect it was as a deliberate trap knowing they were going to lose rather than the usual pre-election tax give away / bribe.

As Ms Reeves said in her speech yesterday "It's time to be honest with the people" ... yet during the General Election campaign the IFS were appearing on TV almost as often as Reform continually saying how these politicians are not being honest about the situation yet Labour pursuded what all experts were saying that "it doesn't stack-up" and now suddenly Labour decide they "Need to be honest with the people".

We are being treated as fools but those only interested in their own egos.

 

[matticus]

Well of course. No-one cares about the manifesto except for politicians. The "manifesto" is what one party can use to beat the other over the head with. In turn the parties allies in the press will make political capital.

"Rachel from Accounts breaks manifesto pledges".
"Lying Labour Party in embarrassing u-turn"
"Starmer breaks out his flip flops again"

No one in the real world cares about the manifesto.

I agree. (my bold added).

It's only political pundits - professionals, and the amateurs in spaces like NACA - that bang on about them much. Look at the Vox Pops, the ones listing "Voters main concerns": where do manifesto pledges rank??

 

[briantrumpet]

As Ms Reeves said in her speech yesterday "It's time to be honest with the people" ... yet during the General Election campaign the IFS were appearing on TV almost as often as Reform continually saying how these politicians are not being honest about the situation yet Labour pursuded what all experts were saying that "it doesn't stack-up" and now suddenly Labour decide they "Need to be honest with the people".

We are being treated as fools but those only interested in their own egos.

It's mostly because the electorate keep on electing/voting for those who tell the biggest fibs. Vide Brexit. Stephen Fry nailed it years ago when he said we get the politicians we deserve because we reward dishonesty.

 

[Psamathe]

It's mostly because the electorate keep on electing/voting for those who tell the biggest fibs. Vide Brexit. Stephen Fry nailed it years ago when he said we get the politicians we deserve because we reward dishonesty.

The Rest Is Politics podcast today raised a good point in that Starmer's approval ratings are now so dire they are complete no-hopers come any elections. So breaking every commitment, every promise can't do much damage as all the damage has already been done by the Starmer/Reeves/McSweeny/Glassman coalition. The hole in the bucket has already allowed all the water to drain out so more holes makes no difference.

 

[Pblakeney]

The "Could you do better?" is an point I don't accept. We pay others for their expertise and expect them to do a competent job. If a surgeon messes-up an operation we hold him to account even though the patient would have suffered a lot worse than the surgeon's botched job.

People criticise their favourite team's goalkeeper for a bad match despite that they could never have stopped anything in the same position.

Same with Chancellor, it is reasonable to expect competency even though one might not be able to do the same. In a similar way I can do some things better than any of our Chancellors.

Nature of specialisation and reasonable expectations.

I disagree. It is realistic to expect MPs to be experts in the field but it happens so rarely that it becomes unrealistic.
Should it be a requirement for the MP for health be a medical doctor for example?

PS - Re manifestos, I understand your view as I used to hold it. Unfortunately what we have now is a disconnect of reality from theory.

 

[Psamathe]

I disagree. It is realistic to expect MPs to be experts in the field but it happens so rarely that it becomes unrealistic.
Should it be a requirement for the MP for health be a medical doctor for example?

If they don't have the expertise then they should listen to experts rather than pursue their personal ideology despite the experts. But in that example they don't need to be a medical doctor but wide field on health management, etc.

It does happen eg GPs become MPs and sit on committees scrutinising. Lords often have the appropriate expertise and experience.

 

[C R]

I disagree. It is realistic to expect MPs to be experts in the field but it happens so rarely that it becomes unrealistic.
Should it be a requirement for the MP for health be a medical doctor for example?

PS - Re manifestos, I understand your view as I used to hold it. Unfortunately what we have now is a disconnect of reality from theory.

I've checked in a few places and can't find who is the MP for health, or where the health constituency is.

 

[Pblakeney]

I've checked in a few places and can't find who is the MP for health, or where the health constituency is.

Okay, minister. Whatever.

 

[Pblakeney]

If they don't have the expertise then they should listen to experts rather than pursue their personal ideology despite the experts.

Yet another example of reality meeting theory.