Starmer's vision quest

[midlandsgrimpeur]

How much of education is subsidised? Or healthcare?

This isn't whataboutery, rather illustrating that society makes choices about to what degree we hand over control of essential services to the free market, and to what degree we need to be able to guarantee access for everyone, and some degree of predictability.

I think a comparison such as this is tricky though. Farming and food production is part of the free market, whereas public services with a small private sector component are largely accepted as being a subsidised public service.

The major issue with farming is that people expect cheap food, and supermarkets have pushed for prices that do not reflect the true cost of food production. We therefore have an arrangement where subsidies are required to keep the farming industry afloat and people fed. What we really should have is a model where food prices reflect the true cost of farming and supermarkets pay a 'real' price and cut their own rather healthy margins to keep prices viable for the customer.

 

[briantrumpet]

It's worth keeping in mind "Chesterton's Fence" when we seek to do away with something we don't understand or even like.

The cynic might observe that this is just a lazy way of hanging onto the status quo. OTOH, the historian might point to changes in direction that, even if they were well-intentioned, have led to outcomes that were worse than a flawed status quo.

 

[briantrumpet]

I think a comparison such as this is tricky though. Farming and food production is part of the free market, whereas public services with a small private sector component are largely accepted as being a subsidised public service.

The major issue with farming is that people expect cheap food, and supermarkets have pushed for prices that do not reflect the true cost of food production. We therefore have an arrangement where subsidies are required to keep the farming industry afloat and people fed. What we really should have is a model where food prices reflect the true cost of farming and supermarkets pay a 'real' price and cut their own rather healthy margins to keep prices viable for the customer.

I agree that a direct comparison isn't terribly helpful, but it's rather more to show that if governments want to have some control over strategic markets, it either has to regulate heavily, and or manipulate that market with tax £s: 'manipulate' at the milder and, and 'control' at the heavier end.

 

[BoldonLad]

See how much money goes into the NHS, and NHS training, and there's your government support of healthcare. To be fair, if we look at the US model, you could argue forcefully that that subsidy actually reduces the average cost per treatment, but it's still taxes going into a business, albeit an essential one. Ditto state education. Both have been invented to supplant the purely private systems of the 19th century, but the government money means it controls the market through mahooosive funding streams. (And quite rightly so.)

Why does every mention of NHS have to be followed very quickly by references to “the US model”?, is the US the only Country with Healthcare (other than UK)?

How can we possibly know if “our” subsidized Agriculture Industry is more or less efficient than an alternative model, if, as you say, the massive input from Government (ie us) skews or indeed controls the market.

Maybe we need to “think outside the box”, and, that does not mean copying USA or any other Country, but, perhaps we could learn something from other Countries?

 

[BoldonLad]

It's worth keeping in mind "Chesterton's Fence" when we seek to do away with something we don't understand or even like.

View attachment 11788

The cynic might observe that this is just a lazy way of hanging onto the status quo. OTOH, the historian might point to changes in direction that, even if they were well-intentioned, have led to outcomes that were worse than a flawed status quo.

The law of unintended consequences is a bugger, best not touch anything, just in case 😊

 

[monkers]

How much of education is subsidised? Or healthcare?

Hardly any of it. The model in the UK is one of collective responsibility and contribution.

 

[Ian H]

When I helped my late FiL with his land returns, he could claim for preserving hedgerows, vernacular buildings and other environmental stuff that yielded no profit for him otherwise. The rest of us benefit from farmers not destroying everything in search of profit.

 

[briantrumpet]

Why does every mention of NHS have to be followed very quickly by references to “the US model”?, is the US the only Country with Healthcare (other than UK)?

How can we possibly know if “our” subsidized Agriculture Industry is more or less efficient than an alternative model, if, as you say, the massive input from Government (ie us) skews or indeed controls the market.

Maybe we need to “think outside the box”, and, that does not mean copying USA or any other Country, but, perhaps we could learn something from other Countries?

FWIW, the bastion of the free market (US) supports its agriculture through subsidies as much as anywhere ($12.6bn in 2023, despite record farm incomes).

The US tends to get chosen as it's more ideologically extreme. The irony of their adoration of free market in healthcare is that they have to chuck enormous subsidies at paying the free market to pick up the pieces of people who can't afford to pay free market prices, as the 'free market' has been hijacked by the insurance companies and for-profit hospitals, and the government has no control over the market.

Obviously there are other models, but most chuck money at healthcare to a greater or lesser degree so that people aren't bankrupted for having the chutzpah to want to survive curable diseases suchlike. The degree to which the private sector is involved in such models does, of course, vary, though governments still (largely) dictate the terms by dint of their money.

 

[BoldonLad]

When I helped my late FiL with his land returns, he could claim for preserving hedgerows, vernacular buildings and other environmental stuff that yielded no profit for him otherwise. The rest of us benefit from farmers not destroying everything in search of profit.

Are there not other ways to control such things?, do the owners of listed buildings get a bung from the government to prevent them falling into disrepair, or being demolished?

That’s a genuine question by the way. I do not own or live in a listed building.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

How can we possibly know if “our” subsidized Agriculture Industry is more or less efficient than an alternative model

And what is 'efficient' in this context? I think you'll find mega farms in the US that are highly 'efficient'. That doesn't stop the food produced being of poor standard or stop US farmers going to the wall. (I no nothing of the latter, so am prepared to be corrected).

 

[briantrumpet]

When I helped my late FiL with his land returns, he could claim for preserving hedgerows, vernacular buildings and other environmental stuff that yielded no profit for him otherwise. The rest of us benefit from farmers not destroying everything in search of profit.

Post-war, of course, 'digging for Britain', they were still giving grants to rip up hedgerows and drain wetlands. Some of those grants were still available in the 1980s.

 

[BoldonLad]

FWIW, the bastion of the free market (US) supports its agriculture through subsidies as much as anywhere ($12.6bn in 2023, despite record farm incomes).

The US tends to get chosen as it's more ideologically extreme. The irony of their adoration of free market in healthcare is that they have to chuck enormous subsidies at paying the free market to pick up the pieces of people who can't afford to pay free market prices, as the 'free market' has been hijacked by the insurance companies and for-profit hospitals, and the government has no control over the market.

Obviously there are other models, but most chuck money at healthcare to a greater or lesser degree so that people aren't bankrupted for having the chutzpah to want to survive curable diseases suchlike. The degree to which the private sector is involved in such models does, of course, vary, though governments still (largely) dictate the terms by dint of their money.

No sensible person believes the USA/Freemarket crap, they have been protectionist for my entire lifetime.

 

[BoldonLad]

Post-war, of course, 'digging for Britain', they were still giving grants to rip up hedgerows and drain wetlands. Some of those grants were still available in the 1980s.

That’s the problem with grants and subsidies, easy to introduce, not so easy to withdraw.

 

[briantrumpet]

Are there not other ways to control such things?, do the owners of listed buildings get a bung from the government to prevent them falling into disrepair, or being demolished?

That’s a genuine question by the way. I do not own or live in a listed building.

There are grants, but they are more than swallowed up by the massive additional cost of specialist materials and building techniques stipulated by the authorities. I can't remember the exact figures, but friends of mine with a G2-listed house were told they had to use specific slates to re-roof it which were something like 4x the price per slate, and that was for a relatively simple job. IIRC the grant offered was along the lines of a "Bad luck, here's a Amazon token to cheer you up!", it was so paltry in comparison.

 

[briantrumpet]

That’s the problem with grants and subsidies, easy to introduce, not so easy to withdraw.

Quite so. I always raised eyebrows when people's farming business plans were predicated on one or other specific subsidy lasting well into the future... they might do so, or they might disappear with a change in government.