The Dahl Affair

[Electric_Andy]

there's always going to be scumbags out there

I agree, but what makes a scumbag? Are they born that way, or do they hear things around them that they think is normal, so perpetuate those behaviours? I get what you are saying, but it's a bit like Football as an example. The players who already play might well use offensive language, but you can stop that at grass roots level, so tomorrow's footballers don't behave in the same way. School kids are grass roots level, and not normalising potentially offensive remarks is probably as good a start as any. Especially as they learn a lot from teachers and parents and books.

For the record, if my son gets bullied, his advice from me is to report it to the teacher. If it happens again, report it to the teacher. If it still happens then punch the offender in the face if he feels confident. But that's an issue of "thick skin" and sticking up for yourself. What's contained in children's books is something you have control over and can regulate. And is actually being taught as part of curriculum, which we can tweak for the better

 

[qigong chimp]

...lots of people WILL think you're a freak if you dress up like a black rubber dildo and want to be referred to as 'them' so be warned.

Bugger!
Back to the drawing board.

 

[Deleted member 28]

Bugger!
Back to the drawing board.

Fu*k all to add as usual.

 

[Deleted member 28]

I agree, but what makes a scumbag? Are they born that way, or do they hear things around them that they think is normal, so perpetuate those behaviours? I get what you are saying, but it's a bit like Football as an example. The players who already play might well use offensive language, but you can stop that at grass roots level, so tomorrow's footballers don't behave in the same way. School kids are grass roots level, and not normalising potentially offensive remarks is probably as good a start as any. Especially as they learn a lot from teachers and parents and books.

For the record, if my son gets bullied, his advice from me is to report it to the teacher. If it happens again, report it to the teacher. If it still happens then punch the offender in the face if he feels confident. But that's an issue of "thick skin" and sticking up for yourself. What's contained in children's books is something you have control over and can regulate. And is actually being taught as part of curriculum, which we can tweak for the better

I would imagine being born into certain family situations doesn't help or certain cultures, the worst comments my daughter would receive were from the 'traveller ' communities for example.

Theres a huge difference between being a scumbag and being a bit savvy if you're referring to what people 'hear around them'.

 

[mudsticks]

You want me to read out a fairly suggestive sex scene to a five year old just in case she ever gets a job on a building site?

Don't worry by the time she's got her carpentry skills together things should have got better again .

My youngest has just got his ticket for building site work
OK it may only be tokenism at the moment, but in the health and safety test section, apparently there's parts about dealing with stress, and bullying.

Even the blokiest, most unsympathetic environments can change for the better if a lead is taken.
I had to put up with quite a lot.of it when I went into agriculture, it's not as bad now but there's still pockets of sexist assumptions about what women can, and should be doing work-wise.

Of course I've got all the comebacks (and evidence of competence) at my fingertips, but wouldn't it be great if this next generation didn't have to waste energy on doing all that.

Apparently construction workers have an abnormally high suicide rate - maybe due to the 'dont show any weakness' 'dont talk about feelings' macho type culture.

But thankfully it's being recognised and tackled somewhat now.

I don't remember this much fuss being made when they changed the Richard Scarry books, and I loved those books. In fact according to this website it took an eagle eyed father who had a copy of the original.

https://www.sbs.com.au/topics/voice...-books-now-reflect-contemporary-social-values

Loved Richard Scarry too.
Lowly worm and all his mates 🐍
I think my kids ended up with the original Seventies versions from charity shops.

We really enjoyed Phillip Reeve - 'Mortal Engines' series. and Michelle Paver 'Wolf Brother'

They both have really strong female characters.

And lots of spectacular adventuring.
They're more aimed at young teens, we ended up.taking turns to read the chapters to each other.

I don't have strong feelings about rewriting Dahl, of course he was 'of his time' - 'straight out of the packet' priveleged white male, and rathe a lot of lazy stereotyping..

But discussing or adapting language, in older books to explore how we have, and can make progress is an interesting thing to do with your kids.

 

[winjim]

But discussing or adapting language, in older books to explore how we have, and can make progress is an interesting thing to do with your kids.

It looks as if we're going to be home edding at least one of our kids so that's the sort of thing we might be doing in earnest fairly soon.

 

[mudsticks]

It looks as if we're going to be home edding at least one of our kids so that's the sort of thing we might be doing in earnest fairly soon.

Good luck with that.

I'm not sure if I'd have had the patience.
It's a big commitment, but I suspect you'll make a good job of it 👌🏼

We used to have fun deconstructing fairy tales, like wondering if maybe Rapunzel was actually enjoying the solitude of her tower so she could get her novel finished, with the 'witch' in fact being a helpful older female facilitating her work by bringing food.
And that Rapunz' was planning on leaving of her own free will once she was done.

But princey boy wouldn't take no for an answer, and pretty much abducted her at knife point, after an enforced hair cut.

 

[fozy tornip]

I think the Oompa-Loompas are a bit more complicit in their own servitude in the new revisions.

They voted for Oompa-Loompxit?

 

[fozy tornip]

... there's always going to be scumbags out there and people need to realise this.

Yes, but the law - society's determination - tells me I don't have to accept exposure to scumbaggery in my working life. Employers need to realise this.
Are you saying that cultures that normalise and reward scumbaggery - e.g. the Met or the Conservative party - shouldn't be accountable and pressured to reform?

 

[multitool]

We used to have fun deconstructing fairy tales, like wondering if maybe Rapunzel was actually enjoying the solitude of her tower so she could get her novel finished, with the 'witch' in fact being a helpful older female facilitating her work by bringing food.
And that Rapunz' was planning on leaving of her own free will once she was done.

On that note, there's a mid 70's book called Uses of Enchantment, by psychologist Bruno Bettleheim, which undertakes a Freudian analysis of classic fairy tales. The central thesis of the book is that fairy tales are essentially morality plays with encoded lessons for children to protect themselves from very human dangers such as predatory paedophilic uncles and suchlike.

In so far as childhood literature is integral to educating children into social value systems, it is not surprising that those who grew up reading Rupert the Bear annuals of the 1940s, which depicted black people as rubbery-lipped identical beings called "Coons" with a tendency towards theft and dishonesty, should grow up to be racists.

Naturally, at the time, these children's cartoons were considered entirely appropriate and not at all controversial.

 

[qigong chimp]

On that note, there's a mid 70's book called Uses of Enchantment, by psychologist Bruno Bettleheim, which undertakes a Freudian analysis of classic fairy tales. The central thesis of the book is that fairy tales are essentially morality plays with encoded lessons for children to protect themselves from very human dangers such as predatory paedophilic uncles and suchlike.

In so far as childhood literature is integral to educating children into social value systems, it is not surprising that those who grew up reading Rupert the Bear annuals of the 1940s, which depicted black people as rubbery-lipped identical beings called "Coons" with a tendency towards theft and dishonesty, should grow up to be racists.

For a Jungian slant see Marie-Louise von Franz's The Interpretation of Fairy Tales.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

In so far as childhood literature is integral to educating children into social value systems, it is not surprising that those who grew up reading Rupert the Bear annuals of the 1940s, which depicted black people as rubbery-lipped identical beings called "Coons" with a tendency towards theft and dishonesty, should grow up to be racists.

Because we all did of course.

 

[multitool]

That's the thing about racists.

They don't call themselves racists. They don't even think they are racist. They just think they are right.

The wider point being that social attitudes do not occur in a vacuum. They come from somewhere. Even dyed in the wool reactionary bigots like Shep will now probably eschew the most overtly racist depictions of people, but that is only in the light of 60 years of successful anti-racism action that has put racism beyond what is now considered socially acceptable. The Sheps of the 70s and 80s were laughing at stand up comedians doing skits about black people being intellectually inferior.

So, with regards to children's literature and in reference to the 1940s Rupert the Bear cartoons, I think it is justified that we should cast a continual eye over it lest we be indoctrinating children into social attitudes that are destructive. Nothing wrong with trying to make the world a better place for everyone is there?

 

[swansonj]

Because we all did of course.

Well, judging by Cyclechat, yes, a distressingly significant fraction of us did...

 

[mudsticks]

Yes, but the law - society's determination - tells me I don't have to accept exposure to scumbaggery in my working life. Employers need to realise this.
Are you saying that cultures that normalise and reward scumbaggery - e.g. the Met or the Conservative party - shouldn't be accountable and pressured to reform?

In my experience as both employee, and employer tolerance of 'scumbaggery' in the workplace goes alongside poor work output, low morale, and does nothing to retain the brightest and best.

It just promotes a 'race to the bottom'.
As can be observed in those two examples you've given.

The way it's portrayed (and swallowed) as some kind of 'thats just how it is - suck it up buttercup' spin by both protagonists and indeed many of its victims is due I reckon in no small part down to our still excessively class, and hierachy bound society.

Still I see a lot of the youth (and a good few older ones too 😇) are no longer having it, and are speaking up, standing up against the bullies, and saying enough is enough - good for them 👌🏼