The Dishi-Rishi thread....

[Deleted member 28]

There will be a cohort that will need the 2 year fix, but ultimately it's just another governmental sticking plaster that doesn't address the root cause of the problem. Bit like employing a charity to help marooned truck drivers outside Dover when they should be fixing the border issues they created....
It's just a headline to make Sunak look positive in front of his failed management of the economy.

Sounds rather familiar...................Education, Education, Education.

 

[Fab Foodie]

The issue is that Children in the UK have been taught maths from age 5 to 16. If they are still struggling with maths at 16, how is tow more years of it going to make any difference?

I presume it's a reaction to this:


But the solution is not two more years of maths, it's better maths teaching in the first place. Eldest daughter struggles with maths (probably linked to dyslexia) but has had some excellent teachers who have enabled her to progress to a level where she is expected a very good grade at GCSE. Not everyone has that opportunity.

It also begs the question whether or not we are teaching the right kind of Maths to the right kind of people? I suggest probably not (always).
Part of that is defining what we need by a 'decent level of numeracy' by 16, I'd suggest competency in the day to day maths such as adding, subtraction, multiplication, division, converting fraction to decimals, weights and measures, understanding basic interest rates, how to manage a simple budget/P&L, Understanding basic tax calculations, understanding basic statistics, the ability to estimate.

Geometry and all but the simplest algebra (and a whole other raft of taught Maths, probably don't figure greatly in most peoples' lives....

 

[icowden]

It also begs the question whether or not we are teaching the right kind of Maths to the right kind of people? I suggest probably not (always).
Part of that is defining what we need by a 'decent level of numeracy' by 16, I'd suggest competency in the day to day maths such as adding, subtraction, multiplication, division, converting fraction to decimals, weights and measures, understanding basic interest rates, how to manage a simple budget/P&L, Understanding basic tax calculations, understanding basic statistics, the ability to estimate.

Geometry and all but the simplest algebra (and a whole other raft of taught Maths, probably don't figure greatly in most peoples' lives....

Agreed. Probably the hardest question that a parent has to deal with is "WHY DO I HAVE TO LEARN THIS?". Giving real world examples to children leaning maths is essential. If you don't understand why you need to know it, your motivation for learning something goes right down.

 

[BoldonLad]

It also begs the question whether or not we are teaching the right kind of Maths to the right kind of people? I suggest probably not (always).
Part of that is defining what we need by a 'decent level of numeracy' by 16, I'd suggest competency in the day to day maths such as adding, subtraction, multiplication, division, converting fraction to decimals, weights and measures, understanding basic interest rates, how to manage a simple budget/P&L, Understanding basic tax calculations, understanding basic statistics, the ability to estimate.

Geometry and all but the simplest algebra (and a whole other raft of taught Maths, probably don't figure greatly in most peoples' lives....

It would be interesting to know the proportion of the Adult population who could achieve that lot!, but, I would agree, it is a reasonable target

 

[bobzmyunkle]

Cones Hotline

'Major left school just before his 16th birthday in 1959 with just three O-level passes in History, English Language and English Literature'

No post 16 maths. I'm sure there's a causal link.

 

[BoldonLad]

Agreed. Probably the hardest question that a parent has to deal with is "WHY DO I HAVE TO LEARN THIS?". Giving real world examples to children leaning maths is essential. If you don't understand why you need to know it, your motivation for learning something goes right down.

Hmm.

1. So, a child at (say) age 10 (with no idea of what their future career may be) asks that question, it is (IMHO) unanswerable, because, it may well depend, in part, the future path a child takes. Not much point deciding you don't want to learn any Science, and then deciding on a University Course and/or Job in a scientific field. It may be difficult, but, sometime parents just have to do stuff.

2. Many children do not have "the luxury" of educated parents who can advise or answer such questions. All kinds of reasons for this, including past failings in the Education System, for whatever reason. Shouldn't we be trying to "level up" these situations?

Don't we want our young people (and indeed, all our people) to be 1st, instead of "27th in the OECD's most recent global tests when it comes to their maths skills", and other skills also?

 

[Fab Foodie]

Hmm.

1. So, a child at (say) age 10 (with no idea of what their future career may be) asks that question, it is (IMHO) unanswerable, because, it may well depend, in part, the future path a child takes. Not much point deciding you don't want to learn any Science, and then deciding on a University Course and/or Job in a scientific field. It may be difficult, but, sometime parents just have to do stuff.

2. Many children do not have "the luxury" of educated parents who can advise or answer such questions. All kinds of reasons for this, including past failings in the Education System, for whatever reason. Shouldn't we be trying to "level up" these situations?

Don't we want our young people (and indeed, all our people) to be 1st, instead of "27th in the OECD's most recent global tests when it comes to their maths skills", and other skills also?

I don't think anyone suggest that there should be an upper limit on how much Maths children can be taught (according to aptitude/interest etc), but there needs to be a basic lower-level as a valuable life skill-set, for those leaving education at 16.
Kids that have grasped the above at 14 can then go on to Quadratic equations, Boolean algebra and Quantum mechanics....

 

[BoldonLad]

I don't think anyone suggest that there should be an upper limit on how much Maths children can be taught (according to aptitude/interest etc), but there needs to be a basic lower-level as a valuable life skill, for those leaving education at 16.

Did I say otherwise?

Either quite the opposite, or, my English Language skills need improving !

 

[icowden]

1. So, a child at (say) age 10 (with no idea of what their future career may be) asks that question, it is (IMHO) unanswerable, because, it may well depend, in part, the future path a child takes

So the teacher should explain that. Geometry is useful for calculating areas. The real world applications for that are calculating how much paint or carpet you need for example. Basic algebra is useful for computer programming and working out answers where you might not have all of the information.

Being able to convert a decimal to a fraction without a calculator is useful er, um... never? At school I was flummoxed by quadratic equations. What on earth are they useful for? Oh - we can use them to work out the profit or loss of a product or calculating the area of an enclose space, working out where something will land. Doesn't sound interesting? Well lets say we have stuntman x. We need him to jump over this canyon and land on this exit ramp here or he dies. Let's use quadratic equations to calculate it - remember if you get it wrong, you're fired!!

Good teaching is about engaging pupils, which in turn is about finding ways to make the abstract interesting and relevant. When I was at school we had a great Physics teacher, Mr "Timmy" Watson. He had a ratty old little dog which was always with him (and which occasionally peed under the lab desks). Instead of trying to engage us with "if object x with a mass of 100kg travelling at 10m/sec hits object y which is stationary and has a mass of 500kg, how far will it travel?" he would pose the question as, if I fire an arrow travelling at 10m/sec up the arse of my dog which is strapped to a cart with a combined mass of 100kg, how far will he travel.

Instantly a class of 24 boys is engaged in trying to work out how far you can propel a dog by shooting an arrow up it's arse.

I try and explain things as a parent when my kids are doing homework, because occasionally the teacher hasn't.

 

[BoldonLad]

So the teacher should explain that. Geometry is useful for calculating areas. The real world applications for that are calculating how much paint or carpet you need for example. Basic algebra is useful for computer programming and working out answers where you might not have all of the information.

Being able to convert a decimal to a fraction without a calculator is useful er, um... never? At school I was flummoxed by quadratic equations. What on earth are they useful for? Oh - we can use them to work out the profit or loss of a product or calculating the area of an enclose space, working out where something will land. Doesn't sound interesting? Well lets say we have stuntman x. We need him to jump over this canyon and land on this exit ramp here or he dies. Let's use quadratic equations to calculate it - remember if you get it wrong, you're fired!!

Good teaching is about engaging pupils, which in turn is about finding ways to make the abstract interesting and relevant. When I was at school we had a great Physics teacher, Mr "Timmy" Watson. He had a ratty old little dog which was always with him (and which occasionally peed under the lab desks). Instead of trying to engage us with "if object x with a mass of 100kg travelling at 10m/sec hits object y which is stationary and has a mass of 500kg, how far will it travel?" he would pose the question as, if I fire an arrow travelling at 10m/sec up the arse of my dog which is strapped to a cart with a combined mass of 100kg, how far will he travel.

Instantly a class of 24 boys is engaged in trying to work out how far you can propel a dog by shooting an arrow up it's arse.

I try and explain things as a parent when my kids are doing homework, because occasionally the teacher hasn't.

Is there any evidence that teachers (in general) don’t do that?

So, in short, teaching skills need improvement? Always room for improvement is my motto.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

Don't we want our young people (and indeed, all our people) to be 1st, instead of "27th in the OECD's most recent global tests when it comes to their maths skills", and other skills also?

These comparisons are usually somewhat suspect. Are they comparing rote learning or are they comparing problem solving, for instance? I suspect the former. I also suspect that the extra tuition (if any) that Rishi implements will be the former.
I'm not saying we shouldn't have a goal of improving maths skills, just that it's always better to understand the goal before we implement the solution. And maybe have a feedback loop to reassess it as things progress.

 

[BoldonLad]

These comparisons are usually somewhat suspect. Are they comparing rote learning or are they comparing problem solving, for instance? I suspect the former. I also suspect that the extra tuition (if any) that Rishi implements will be the former.
I'm not saying we shouldn't have a goal of improving maths skills, just that it's always better to understand the goal before we implement the solution. And maybe have a feedback loop to reassess it as things progress.

OMG! Always my first step, before proposing a solution, identify the problem. A feedback loop, reassess progress.... haven't heard sentiments like that since I retired 15 years ago!

Sounds like someone who may actually wish to achieve something!

 

[Fab Foodie]

Did I say otherwise?

Either quite the opposite, or, my English Language skills need improving !

The English comprehension thread is over there --------------------->

 

[BoldonLad]

The English comprehension thread is over there --------------------->

It is a long time since school, but, if memory serves... Comprehension is understanding, it was expressing an idea/view which appeared to alluding me, unless, that is, you are suggesting that others need to visit said thread

 

[theclaud]

it was expressing an idea/view which appeared to alluding me

Eluding. Sorry - don't usually do that, but the context seemed to call for it.