The Nasty Party (AKA the Tories), it's back!

[BoldonLad]

No shoot, Sherlock. Where did we rank in 2010?

Maybe you need to address that question to @cookiemonster , it was them who declined to provide a link to their claim.

 

[newfhouse]

In which survey?

In the WHO survey you referenced.

 

[Deleted member 49]

Understaffed and underfunded,it's basically on it's knees.The highest number of excess deaths in the NHS since 195Os.Just been on the BBC news that the Ambulance response time are at their worst since records were created.

 

[BoldonLad]

In the WHO survey you referenced.

Can't find a WHO survey for 2010, but, in 2000, we didn't make the top ten either https://www.who.int/news/item/07-02-2000-world-health-organization-assesses-the-world's-health-systems

It wasn't me who referenced 2010, it was Cookie, who declined to provide a link, so, I have no idea which survey was being referred to.

 

[BoldonLad]

Understaffed and underfunded,it's basically on it's knees.The highest number of excess deaths in the NHS since 195Os.Just been on the BBC news that the Ambulance response time are at their worst since records were created.

I must have watched a different version, it was shortage of Social Care accommodation which got most of the blame. A problem which has been around since the Blair/Brown years, and, no doubt before that. As mentioned on the news, Prime Ministers of both Parties have promised to "solve" the problem, none of them have.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

I must have watched a different version, it was shortage of Social Care accommodation which got most of the blame. A problem which has been around since the Blair/Brown years, and, no doubt before that. As mentioned on the news, Prime Ministers of both Parties have promised to "solve" the problem, none of them have.

Which Labour Prime Minister since Brown has let us down?

 

[BoldonLad]

This strange fascination with our NHS ranking in the charts is reminiscent of the old Alan Freeman 'Pick of the pops" programme which used to chart the risers and fallers in the charts each week. Except that was very simple and based on recorded sales, whereas "best" health systems takes into account a whole range of factors including access, efficiency, costs, outcomes etc. and allows supporters/critics to cherry-pick which bits of it are best.

There have been times when the NHS was ranked very highly by international bodies and other times when it has not fared so well.

It has never been perfect, and everyone's views will be weighted according to problems they or their loved ones have had in dealing with it rather than a purely objective analysis.

What seems to be clear is that, whether based on personal anecdata or more substantial analysis, it has been getting worse in recent years at a time of austerity, and possibly by coincidence, depending on how important one thinks the governing party is in it all, at a time when that government has been the Tories.

I don't really care whether we are No.1 or not in the charts, I just want a system that is good enough to meet the health needs of a (still wealthy) country with an increasingly ageing population, and I don't believe anyone can say it is in recent years.

We are in rare agreement.

A few minutes search on Google, and you can find a Survey of Healthcare Systems to suit almost any "spin".

I have actually managed to find one where the NHS is in the top 10.

I make no claim to it's accuracy or impartiality.

https://www.expatriatehealthcare.co...uth Korea,is affordable and readily available.

 

[BoldonLad]

Which Labour Prime Minister since Brown has let us down?

What are you taking about?. The News item referenced Blair (who was before Brown). The point is that none of the Prime Ministers (regardless of Party) in that period have 'solved" the problem. Sorry, but, I am not fixated on shouting Tories Bad, Labour (would be) Good. Like Rusty, I just want it (NHS, and Social Care) fixing. IMHO, Healthcare and Social Care need to be integrated, neither can work without the other.

 

[newfhouse]

Can't find a WHO survey for 2010, but, in 2000, we didn't make the top ten either https://www.who.int/news/item/07-02-2000-world-health-organization-assesses-the-world's-health-systems

It wasn't me who referenced 2010, it was Cookie, who declined to provide a link, so, I have no idea which survey was being referred to.

Your two surveys, both at roughly the fag end of a Tory government, don’t demonstrate either stasis or a trend. I wonder if these graphs, which I’ve posted before, might be useful indicators of performance over time.

 

[BoldonLad]

Your two surveys, both at roughly the fag end of a Tory government, don’t demonstrate either stasis or a trend. I wonder if these graphs, which I’ve posted before, might be useful indicators of performance over time.

View attachment 2840

View attachment 2841

Quite possibly

I never said NHS was not in decline

A) it wasn't me who brought up Surveys

B) my initial point was that we need to stop this 'best in the world" rubbish and accept reality, then, do something about it. In fact, we might actually be able to learn something from the better performing systems, and, that does most definitely not mean learning from USA. It was another Poster who used the USA as a benchmark.

 

[cookiemonster]

So, you don’t have a link

"best" healthcare system is a meaningless statement, unless you define what is meant by best.

It would appear that in 2022 UK did not even make the top 10 https://www.william-russell.com/blog/countries-worlds-best-healthcare-systems/

Of the top 10, it would be interesting to know how many (if any) use a UK like model (I have no idea of the answer).

I do have some personal experience (anecdotal of course, but, I suppose my anecdotal evidence is a s bad, or, good, as yours) of two of the healthcare systems in the list (French and Spanish), as well, of course, our own UK system.

I don't have the time to look. That's why I said you can look for yourself.

 

[icowden]

It wasn't me who referenced 2010, it was Cookie, who declined to provide a link, so, I have no idea which survey was being referred to.

I already gave you the details. The idea that the NHS was best in the world in 2017 came from Theresa May. I think it was based on the same report that CANDI quote here:-

https://www.candi.nhs.uk/news/nhs-declared-world’s-best-healthcare-system

 

[BoldonLad]

I already gave you the details. The idea that the NHS was best in the world in 2017 came from Theresa May. I think it was based on the same report that CANDI quote here:-

https://www.candi.nhs.uk/news/nhs-declared-world’s-best-healthcare-system

By international measures, in 2010, it was the best in the world.

It was a Theresa May cherrypick, in a sense it may have been, but in other senses maybe not.
https://fullfact.org/health/has-nhs-been-judged-best-healthcare-system-world/#
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10375877

It has always been significantly better than the USA though, so that's worth something!

2017?, so, was the person in the original post, identifying it as best in the world in 2010 clairvoyant?

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

What are you taking about?. The News item referenced Blair (who was before Brown). The point is that none of the Prime Ministers (regardless of Party) in that period have 'solved" the problem. Sorry, but, I am not fixated on shouting Tories Bad, Labour (would be) Good. Like Rusty, I just want it (NHS, and Social Care) fixing. IMHO, Healthcare and Social Care need to be integrated, neither can work without the other.

My apologies. A speed reading error on my part.

Strange, though, that I have no recollection of social care reform in the Labour party's manifestos.

 

[BoldonLad]

My apologies. A speed reading error on my part.

Strange, though, that I have no recollection of social care reform in the Labour party's manifestos.

Accepted.

Absence of SC from manifesto is hardly a plus, IMHO, given the state of SC.