The role of gender and words...

[winjim]

There ought to be some kind of redundancy principle used here. If you're reasonably sure it's going to be a postman, there's no need to say man, so you may as well just call him a postie. If you don't know it's going to be a man, you may as well leave the misleading man bit out as well, and call whoever it turns out to be a postie.

The correct term is postfighter.

 

[mudsticks]

There was some commentary somewhere around these parts recently about how when you get far enough to the left or far enough to the right politically, you can start to look quite similar. But, judged by the sample of left-wingers and right-wingers presented to us here, I think there's one pretty clear difference: it's only the right-wingers who take pride in closing their minds to learning from other people.

A bit like this??

What's your issue here?

The whole thread is about gender neutral descriptions for job roles and the fact it might hold people back, Doctor, Astronaut were 2 examples given in this very thread, someone else then went on to say something about 'being disrespectful' to the service or something, and someone else thinking it 'unnecessary' to use the description.

I disagree and think it's boll0x, there's no knicker twisting involved.

Next time you disagree with an opinion I'll ask you about your underwear situation at the time if you like?

You're not in the group that is being discriminated against by use of outdated language though are you..??

As someone who has been gender discriminated against in my job , I can tell you that it's very wearing, it's no one thing that's said necessarily, it's just frequentl repetition of the same old stereotypical tropes.

I chose to rise above it, and nowadays, no one gets to question my abilities , or right to be here, doing this..

But why should I have had to put in the extra effort do that, in the first place??

On top of just doing my job competently.

The same kind discrimination puts some people off from trying things at all, because they fear they 'wont fit in'.

Or they don't see 'people like them' doing those things.

Or else they convince themselves that they have to be outstanding at all of it , to represent their group as a whole.

It's exhausting, and holds people back in so many ways

A tiny amount of thoughtfulness, and adjustment of words , could remedy a lot.

But that would require some effort , right,??

 

[BoldonLad]

Really? Do you include yourself in that?

Perhaps I’m an oddity but I have learned a lot by listening to others. In many topic areas I have my natural biases confirmed, in others I have become much less certain of my position, and I expect if I gave it some thought I could think of occasions when I have been persuaded to change my mind.

I wouldn’t say my views have been changed by anything I have read on NACA , blurred around the edges, yes, but, not fundamentally changed.

 

[mudsticks]

Really? Do you include yourself in that?

Perhaps I’m an oddity but I have learned a lot by listening to others. In many topic areas I have my natural biases confirmed, in others I have become much less certain of my position, and I expect if I gave it some thought I could think of occasions when I have been persuaded to change my mind.

Yup me too.

I'm here because I get to hear voices not necessarily so prevalent in my daily life.

Not to hear myself echoed


And, there's a big difference between biases and bigotry.

We all have a tendency towards biases but we can learn to identify them, and even challenge them.

Bigotry is just unexamined, unthinking knee jerk stuff, learnt from parents or peers or wherever.

I've had my views changed on some stuff too

And found it all quite edumacational.

 

[BoldonLad]

There was some commentary somewhere around these parts recently about how when you get far enough to the left or far enough to the right politically, you can start to look quite similar. But, judged by the sample of left-wingers and right-wingers presented to us here, I think there's one pretty clear difference: it's only the right-wingers who take pride in closing their minds to learning from other people.

I think it is my post you are referring to. My point was (obviously not well made) that extremists and/or zealots from either camp, appear pretty similar to those in the centre.

 

[Deleted member 28]

You're not in the group that is being discriminated against by use of outdated language though are you..??

Nor are the the people I'm referring to are they, because they're Men and I'm referring to them as Men?

I'm not calling a Woman a Man I'm saying that if I refer to a Post MAN or Fire Man as men why could there possibly be upset?

 

[newfhouse]

I wouldn’t say my views have been changed by anything I have read on NACA , blurred around the edges, yes, but, not fundamentally changed.

I missed the other type of change that should have been on my list: developing opinions on a topic that you had never previously considered much if at all. Does that apply?

 

[BoldonLad]

I missed the other type of change that should have been on my list: developing opinions on a topic that you had never previously considered much if at all. Does that apply?

Well, cannot immediately think of one, but, that doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened.

Obviously, my view of myself, may not be how others see me. I am not much of a “take things on faith”, sort of person, and, I am willing to accept, I could be wrong. I often think, that is why I am not a religious person. No blind faith in me.

 

[mudsticks]

Nor are the the people I'm referring to are they, because they're Men and I'm referring to them as Men?

I'm not calling a Woman a Man I'm saying that if I refer to a Post MAN or Fire Man as men why could there possibly be upset?

Except that wasn't what you said in the post I quoted, yours was a generalised 'it's all bollix'

We've done the bit about referring to individuals by their gender, already..

But anyway, you're not really that interested , so why i wasted time typing anything, I don't know.

 

[Deleted member 28]

Except that wasn't what you said in the post I quoted, yours was a generalised 'it's all bollix'

We've done the bit about referring to individuals by their gender, already..

But anyway, you're not really that interested , so why i wasted time typing anything, I don't know.

So it's 'wrong' to refer to a role as Gendered?
Fireman, Postman etc surely isn't offensive if you're a Man is it?

Exactly what I said, and I think it is bollox because the vast majority of roles are gender neutral already.

 

[mudsticks]

Exactly what I said, and I think it is bollox because the vast majority of roles are gender neutral already.

They're not referred to as such though are they.

That was the whole point of the thread..

Or hadn't you noticed, that small detail.?

 

[Deleted member 28]

They're not referred to as such though are they.

That was the whole point of the thread..

Or hadn't you noticed, that small detail.?

What?

I think I've lost the plot here, what are they referred to as than ?

A Female firefighter isn't called a Firewoman now or a Doctor a Doctor'ess?

My Lad works with Female screws and they're 'Prison Officers' just like him, my missus used to work with Female consultants that were 'Doctors' so I can't really see what more needs to be done?

You're a Farmer, as I understand it, and guess you WANT to be referred to as one I assume, so what's the problem?

I realise Actress has been replaced with Actor but I can't really think of many other roles that were Female specific?

Nurse has been mentioned, well aren't both Men and Women called Nurses, I recall a Male Staff Nurse is/was called a 'charge' Nurse at one stage but that may have been just a local reference?

 

[fozy tornip]

Farmer?
The farmer wants a wife, and mudders is a Land Girl, surely?

 

[Fab Foodie]

Farmer?
The farmer wants a wife, and mudders is a Land Girl, surely?

Farmher surely....

 

[icowden]

I recall a Male Staff Nurse is/was called a 'charge' Nurse at one stage but that may have been just a local reference?

Nope. A Charge Nurse is a senior Nurse (in charge of other Nurses you see).
But gender assumption is endemic in those professions.

As illustrated by:-


View: https://twitter.com/manwhohasitall/status/1117731440194727937?s=20


and indeed:-


View: https://twitter.com/manwhohasitall/status/1462861438419030016?s=20

and (worth clicking on this one to see more replies from Kate who has genuinely been asked these questions)


View: https://twitter.com/revkatebottley/status/1203979178258915328?s=20