Trail Hunting ban

[icowden]

I am absolutely no expert on "countryside matters" having been a "townie" all of my life, I do often wonder, when watching TV programs about Conservation, when it is said that to preserve the "natural" environment, "management" is needed. If it is "managed", is it "natural" ?

My understanding is that if somewhere is true wilderness then the balance of nature manages itself. In the UK we don't really have any true wilderness having hunted to extinction some of the animals that provided balance, and even ancient woodlands need a bit of management.

There was an article about beavers on the Beeb yesterday looking at how they can often really encourage nature - but can also be problematic. They have added a lot of beavers in the Netherlands, but found that Beavers can be really detrimental to dykes, and as their tunnels are below the waterline, it's tricky to find out where their tunnels are...

 

[icowden]

Those wanting to fox hunt try to portray it as "pest control" - where I used to live in rural Oxfordshire the area had artificial fox sets and fox cubs were purchased to provide the fox population for hunts (from a place in Banbury).

Yeah, the pest control thing is a complete myth. For starters it would be a massively ineffective way of controlling pests.

"Yes, I've got a problem with foxes attacking my food bin..."
"No problem sir, me and 30 other chaps will be over with our horses and 20 dogs to fix it for you."
"er..."
"Now, it *may* cause some damage to your garden and those of all your neighbours, and some people don't like it when we rub the blood of the mice on our faces to celebrate catching such a tricky foe..."
"actually, I think I'll just buy a better bin..."
"no, no no. You need to control the foxes"
"Yes, but how many of them are you going to control?"
"Oh just the one - unless it has cubs".
"So - 30 people on horseback and 20 dogs just to catch a single fox (and possibly cubs). Isn't that, er, massively ineffective?"
"INEFFECTIVE? IN-EFF-BLOODY-ECTIVE? Of COURSE IT IS. I didn't get where I am today by being useful and effective! GOOD GOD! It's taken our family many lifetimes to get to the position where we just ride about on horses killing foxes! You won't believe it, but some new age namby pamby types use poison and guns instead. Where's the sport in that? Totally unfair on the fox. With 30 horses and 20 dogs at least it has a CHANCE to escape"
"Hang on - you aren't even guaranteeing that you'll catch the fox?"
"Well, no. They are pretty sly. Although the 20 dogs pretty much guarantee that it's going to end up in small pieces to be honest. Plus we have some shovels if the dogs can't get into the den straight away..."
"I'll need to call you back after I've got a few more quotes..."

 

[PurplePenguin]

Yeah, the pest control thing is a complete myth. For starters it would be a massively ineffective way of controlling pests.

"Yes, I've got a problem with foxes attacking my food bin..."
"No problem sir, me and 30 other chaps will be over with our horses and 20 dogs to fix it for you."
"er..."
"Now, it *may* cause some damage to your garden and those of all your neighbours, and some people don't like it when we rub the blood of the mice on our faces to celebrate catching such a tricky foe..."
"actually, I think I'll just buy a better bin..."
"no, no no. You need to control the foxes"
"Yes, but how many of them are you going to control?"
"Oh just the one - unless it has cubs".
"So - 30 people on horseback and 20 dogs just to catch a single fox (and possibly cubs). Isn't that, er, massively ineffective?"
"INEFFECTIVE? IN-EFF-BLOODY-ECTIVE? Of COURSE IT IS. I didn't get where I am today by being useful and effective! GOOD GOD! It's taken our family many lifetimes to get to the position where we just ride about on horses killing foxes! You won't believe it, but some new age namby pamby types use poison and guns instead. Where's the sport in that? Totally unfair on the fox. With 30 horses and 20 dogs at least it has a CHANCE to escape"
"Hang on - you aren't even guaranteeing that you'll catch the fox?"
"Well, no. They are pretty sly. Although the 20 dogs pretty much guarantee that it's going to end up in small pieces to be honest. Plus we have some shovels if the dogs can't get into the den straight away..."
"I'll need to call you back after I've got a few more quotes..."

What you're describing is a weird cult. Not my thing, but should all weird cults be banned?

 

[Ian H]

Does that mean Hunts could be viewed as Conservationists 😂

Isn't the same true of game birds (ie pheasants, grouse)

Our local shoots import pheasant chicks from France, feed them, then shoot the ones that don't end up as roadkill.

 

[icowden]

What you're describing is a weird cult. Not my thing, but should all weird cults be banned?

I sort of agree with you. The modern take on this particular weird cult is that watching foxes torn apart by dogs is not terribly pleasant for the fox, and thus if we could remove the fox element, then the cult could just ride around with dogs. That's what the law change to trail hunting was supposed to achieve. Unfortunately the hounds keep "accidentally" still finding and killing live foxes.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Does that mean Hunts could be viewed as Conservationists 😂

Isn't the same true of game birds (ie pheasants, grouse)

There's no fox hunts in the streets of North London where my daughter lives but plenty of foxes.

Foxes do OK on survival without the help of those eco-friendly fox hunters.

 

[PurplePenguin]

I sort of agree with you. The modern take on this particular weird cult is that watching foxes torn apart by dogs is not terribly pleasant for the fox, and thus if we could remove the fox element, then the cult could just ride around with dogs. That's what the law change to trail hunting was supposed to achieve. Unfortunately the hounds keep "accidentally" still finding and killing live foxes.

Have they surveyed the foxes to find out which form of death they prefer? Ripped apart by a pack of dogs is likely to be quicker than a bullet to many parts of the body. Plus, gratuitous killing is sort of a fox thing - what sort of gladiator would want to die by poisoning?

 

[briantrumpet]

Our local shoots import pheasant chicks from France, feed them, then shoot the ones that don't end up as roadkill.

And because they are hand reared by humans (and haven't been evolving to be canny), they are sitting ducks.

 

[BoldonLad]

There's no fox hunts in the streets of North London where my daughter lives but plenty of foxes.

Foxes do OK on survival without the help of those eco-friendly fox hunters.

Perhaps the poster who "read somewhere" that " fox populations are far lower in regions without hunts." was misinformed 😊

 

[First Aspect]

I am absolutely no expert on "countryside matters" having been a "townie" all of my life, I do often wonder, when watching TV programs about Conservation, when it is said that to preserve the "natural" environment, "management" is needed. If it is "managed", is it "natural" ?

Yes and no. If you starting point is an ecological desert that is completely unbalanced, such as basically all of Britain, then if you just let it go it will be some other form of unnatural.

Management can also involve things like removing invasive species.

 

[Psamathe]

I am absolutely no expert on "countryside matters" having been a "townie" all of my life, I do often wonder, when watching TV programs about Conservation, when it is said that to preserve the "natural" environment, "management" is needed. If it is "managed", is it "natural" ?

Yes and no. If you starting point is an ecological desert that is completely unbalanced, such as basically all of Britain, then if you just let it go it will be some other form of unnatural.

Management can also involve things like removing invasive species.

Which raises a related issue about the natutral environment and how we relate to it.

I remember a few years back after there had been a couple of reports of urban fox attacks of babies left unattended in push chairs when a surprisingly sensible TV report highlighted the stupidity that is "humans". For "online content" some had been putting raw meat (from butcher) in a push chair and placing unattended in garden and videoing the fox to post online showing how "foxes attack babies". They were of course also training an intelligent animal of a good source of good food so next time the fox saw an unattended push chair ...

 

[First Aspect]

Even that post infers that when faced with a baby sized object smalling of human, a fox will take it.

We have a lot of foxes in our area. Most of them seem to me to be fox-sized, which surprisingly is quite a bit smaller than a werewolf. Not many farmers seem to realise this, when they accuse them of running off with calves and suchlike.

 

[Psamathe]

We have a lot of foxes in our area. Most of them seem to me to be fox-sized, which surprisingly is quite a bit smaller than a werewolf. Not many farmers seem to realise this, when they accuse them of running off with calves and suchlike.

Reminds me of "The French System" where if a sheep dies of natural causes farmer can't claim on insurance but if the sheep is killed the farmer can claim. So when a sheep just dies farmer starts looking around for domestic dog to blame.

When I lived (very rural) in France, one day having a piano lesson Gendarmes arrived to investigate that my tutor's dog had been accused of attacking and killing a farmer's sheep. Her dog was very overweight and waddled around, couldn't run etc. but I ended up having to hold the dogs mouth open so Gendarmes could inspect inside to look for any signs of sheep around its teeth, etc., explain to Gendarmes it's incapability to do anything sensible (my piano tutor was too distraught as sheep are expensive and she'd be personally liable if they decided her dog was the culprit.

 

[First Aspect]

Reminds me of "The French System" where if a sheep dies of natural causes farmer can't claim on insurance but if the sheep is killed the farmer can claim. So when a sheep just dies farmer starts looking around for domestic dog to blame.

When I lived (very rural) in France, one day having a piano lesson Gendarmes arrived to investigate that my tutor's dog had been accused of attacking and killing a farmer's sheep. Her dog was very overweight and waddled around, couldn't run etc. but I ended up having to hold the dogs mouth open so Gendarmes could inspect inside to look for any signs of sheep around its teeth, etc., explain to Gendarmes it's incapability to do anything sensible (my piano tutor was too distraught as sheep are expensive and she'd be personally liable if they decided her dog was the culprit.

Similar reasoning applies to farmers' treatment of corvids and birds of prey. They have a belief that scavengers peck the eyes out of live, healthy lambs. Rather than dead or nearly desd abandoned lambs.

Or towards badgers which have infected cattle with bovine flu, shortly after said cattle have just been moved in close confinement in a lorry 100 miles from another area where cattle have been infected by those bastard badgers.

It's just a viabIe excuse to continue the age old tradition of indescriminately eradicating wildlife. It is their way of life and we should all accept that they know best how to look after the land.

 

[briantrumpet]

Similar reasoning applies to farmers' treatment of corvids and birds of prey. They have a belief that scavengers peck the eyes out of live, healthy lambs. Rather than dead or nearly desd abandoned lambs.

Or towards badgers which have infected cattle with bovine flu, shortly after said cattle have just been moved in close confinement in a lorry 100 miles from another area where cattle have been infected by those bastard badgers.

It's just a viabIe excuse to continue the age old tradition of indescriminately eradicating wildlife. It is their way of life and we should all accept that they know best how to look after the land.

Re the TB thing, it might be worth seeing how the statistics for infections line up with the use of targeted badger culling.

• In England overall, herd incidence between October 2024 and September 2025 was 7.3, a decrease of 0.2 from the previous 12 months. At the end of September 2025, herd prevalence was 3.7% in England - the lowest value since November 2007 (Table 1.1).

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...reat-britain-statistics-notice-september-2025