Trail Hunting ban

[First Aspect]

Culling started in 2013.

The better answer is: The report you linked to is largely silent on that, but links to another one which is largely silent on the effects of culling on bovine TB. The reports do say that there have been other changes in farming and data collection practices that can affect the data.

My inexpert read of the data you have posted is that within the large year on year fluctuations, the incidencence of bovine tb is basically flat. Possibly a slight downward trend. But unless you can attribute the upward trend on the 2000s to an outbreak of badgers, you can't say the downward trend is caused by culling them.

Pretty sure the conclusion from the badger cull was that it achieved some needless destruction and appeased some farmers, but little else.

 

[Psamathe]

Re the TB thing, it might be worth seeing how the statistics for infections line up with the use of targeted badger culling.

View attachment 11974



https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...reat-britain-statistics-notice-september-2025

We have also found a major cause of the spread of TB (not badger related). The trouble with such graphs is they don't provide any information about causes and effect as one is grouping such a large sample together and some then attribute any effects to the most high profile widely reported intervention.

It's a very complex picture made worse by the illegal behaviour of (some) farmers. eg 'reactive culling' has been shown to increase the levels of TB in areas it has been approved yet despite that 2024 saw Gov. license culls in Lincolnshire.

One needs to note that (some) farmers have undoubtedly changed their practices which will be lowering TB risks in their herds (nothing to do with badgers).

Even around me you occasionally see a dead badger on a verge and with no nearby sets most likely killed by a farmer who needs to get rid of carcass far enough away to avoid them being checked.

 

[briantrumpet]

Culling started in 2013.

The better answer is: The report you linked to is largely silent on that, but links to another one which is largely silent on the effects of culling on bovine TB. The reports do say that there have been other changes in farming and data collection practices that can affect the data.

My inexpert read of the data you have posted is that within the large year on year fluctuations, the incidencence of bovine tb is basically flat. Possibly a slight downward trend. But unless you can attribute the upward trend on the 2000s to an outbreak of badgers, you can't say the downward trend is caused by culling them.

Pretty sure the conclusion from the badger cull was that it achieved some needless destruction and appeased some farmers, but little else.

I'm not going to claim it's not a contentious subject, but I'm pretty sure none of the many dairy farmers I know/have known would want badgers to be killed unnecessarily, but faced with a steeply rising infection rate, a known reservoir of infection in an increasing badger population (they are protected and have no predators), and limited scope to do anything about it (no vaccinations, etc), it shouldn't surprise anyone that they generally support *something* being done to try to limit the PITA restrictions that having a positive case confirmed, and the massive financial loss. Being told that there might be some sort of vaccine 10 years down the line, when you might have gone out of business, and there's nothing else that can be done, isn't much of a comfort.

At least seeing the line heading down rather than inexorably up, as it had been doing for quite a long time, makes it seem somewhat less hopeless.

 

[Psamathe]

... a known reservoir of infection in an increasing badger population

You are making a massive assumptions that the badger population is a reservoir of "infection" rather than "infected".

no vaccinations

Vaccines are available and effective, just the Government won't permit their use. But then it depends if we are considering vaccinating badgers of cattle. Badgers would be challenging given the lifespan of badgers and the %age of population needing to be vaccinated it would be "challenging".

What is needed is to address main cause: cow-cow transmission. Problems from research highlight the unreliability of the SICCT skin test so infected members of herd can spread disease and eg infected bulls missed by the test are moved between farms. Research from back in 2019 identified

... recent data released by the APHA show that it is the prevalence or ‘infectivity’ of cattle that is sustaining bTB infection and driving transmission of Mycobacterium bovis to new herds.
from Thomas E. S. Langton, Mark W. Jones, Iain McGill, Analysis of the impact of badger culling on bovine tuberculosis in cattle in the high‐risk area of England, 2009–2020, Veterinary Record, 10.1002/vetr.1384, 190, 6, (2022).

 

[First Aspect]

I'm not going to claim it's not a contentious subject, but I'm pretty sure none of the many dairy farmers I know/have known would want badgers to be killed unnecessarily, but faced with a steeply rising infection rate, a known reservoir of infection in an increasing badger population (they are protected and have no predators), and limited scope to do anything about it (no vaccinations, etc), it shouldn't surprise anyone that they generally support *something* being done to try to limit the PITA restrictions that having a positive case confirmed, and the massive financial loss. Being told that there might be some sort of vaccine 10 years down the line, when you might have gone out of business, and there's nothing else that can be done, isn't much of a comfort.

At least seeing the line heading down rather than inexorably up, as it had been doing for quite a long time, makes it seem somewhat less hopeless.

Yes but as they are basing "necessary" on a belief rather than any actual science, in this case it is unnecessary. Same goes for killing crows, buzzards, sea eagles, foxes and beavers. Basically, anything that moves and is large enough to shoot.

 

[briantrumpet]

You are making a massive assumptions that the badger population is a reservoir of "infection" rather than "infected".

Vaccines are available and effective, just the Government won't permit their use. But then it depends if we are considering vaccinating badgers of cattle. Badgers would be challenging given the lifespan of badgers and the %age of population needing to be vaccinated it would be "challenging".

What is needed is to address main cause: cow-cow transmission. Problems from research highlight the unreliability of the SICCT skin test so infected members of herd can spread disease and eg infected bulls missed by the test are moved between farms. Research from back in 2019 identified

It's way beyond my scientific and statistical ability to meaningfully analyse all the data. I'm just grateful that the infection rate is coming down significantly (and maybe coincidentally since controlled culling was reintroduced). As I say, I'm sure most dairy farmers would be happy if culling badgers weren't part of effective control: there is no inherent antipathy.

 

[First Aspect]

It's way beyond my scientific and statistical ability to meaningfully analyse all the data. I'm just grateful that the infection rate is coming down significantly (and maybe coincidentally since controlled culling was reintroduced). As I say, I'm sure most dairy farmers would be happy if culling badgers weren't part of effective control: there is no inherent antipathy.

Mmm. It's coming down to the levels it used to be. Perhaps your friends are secret badger lovers, but I don't think that's the majority view our here I'm afraid. We even have some fart sniffing organic yoghurt knitting farmer neighbours who are happy that there is no TB nearby so they don't have to do a badger cull.

As a fact, reason and science based person I find this sort or ignorant dogma infuriating.

 

[Ian H]

The elephant in the field - the not-to-be-mentioned carrier of TB that has seen an explosion in population - is deer.

 

[First Aspect]

The elephant in the field - the not-to-be-mentioned carrier of TB that has seen an explosion in population - is deer.

That's fine. Who doesn't like venison.

There are other reasons for culling deer, not the least of which is the welfare of other deer due to over population.

The overpopulation is, ironically, caused by having eradicated everything else that might have eaten them.

D'Oh.

 

[briantrumpet]

There are other reasons for culling deer, not the least of which is the welfare of other deer due to over population.

The overpopulation is, ironically, caused by having eradicated everything else that might have eaten them.

It could be argued that badgers are in a similar situation. Obviously only if one was being contrary though. I wouldn't do that. Obvs.

 

[briantrumpet]

https://www.globalchefs.com/article/current/art123bak.htm

Obviously now illegal.

 

[First Aspect]

It could be argued that badgers are in a similar situation. Obviously only if one was being contrary though. I wouldn't do that. Obvs.

It wouldn't be a good argument because as far as I am aware the UK does not have populations if starving badgers who have eaten all of the worms in their area (c.f. deer and leaves).

 

[briantrumpet]

It wouldn't be a good argument because as far as I am aware the UK does not have populations if starving badgers who have eaten all of the worms in their area (c.f. deer and leaves).

That doesn't seem very scientific.

 

[First Aspect]

That doesn't seem very scientific.

I prefer not to base my badger culling on a supposition. Show me the evidence that it is needed for humane reasons and I'll get out my badger culling club.

Fwiw they are fascinating intelligent communal creatures. The threshold for killing them or indeed anything else like them should be rather higher than lobbying pressure applied to MPs with rural constituencies.

I accept the fact I eat meat is a double standard.

 

[briantrumpet]

I prefer not to base my badger culling on a supposition. Show me the evidence that it is needed for humane reasons and I'll get out my badger culling club.

Fwiw they are fascinating intelligent communal creatures. The threshold for killing them or indeed anything else like them should be rather higher than lobbying pressure applied to MPs with rural constituencies.

I accept the fact I eat meat is a double standard.

I suspect (not scientific) that the same is true for deer. Given the Bambi influence, I'm surprised that they haven't got the same advocacy or pressure groups that badgers have, even if they haven't got the distinctive cute stripes on their faces.