War with Russia

[briantrumpet]

I gave up on that twit.
Bang, bang, bang strung out for 14 minutes with no real conclusion and repetitive scenes which are re-cycled ad nauseum to generate YT hits and earn money.
Similar to Jason Stuart who almost never references his claims.

Fairy nuff.

 

[Ian H]

Meanwhile, corruption is rife in Ukraine. There have been protests against the government - "The Cardboard Revolution", as they were holding cardboard signs. Most of the fighting units are pretty much autonomous, some with dubious political affiliations. How will they be controlled as and when the war ends?

 

[Rusty Nails]

Meanwhile, corruption is rife in Ukraine. There have been protests against the government - "The Cardboard Revolution", as they were holding cardboard signs. Most of the fighting units are pretty much autonomous, some with dubious political affiliations. How will they be controlled as and when the war ends?

In common with several of the former USSR countries, including next door neighbours Russia and Belarus, Ukraine has retained its high level of corruption since the break-up of that Union.

Sorting that out in the current war situation is going to be even more difficult than in peacetime and, while not irrelevant, is probably not the main priority at the moment.

Getting rid of old, entrenched habits is not easy.

 

[Bazzer]

In common with several of the former USSR countries, including next door neighbours Russia and Belarus, Ukraine has retained its high level of corruption since the break-up of that Union.

It is unlikely to be just be the level of corruption which will be of concern.
Whatever the outcome of the invasion, there will be a large number of soldiers whether in Russia or Ukraine, who will be mentally damaged. With many having developed the attractive for some skill of brutality without remorse.
I understand that following the Russian withdrawal from Afghanistan, there was a significant increase in internal violence in Russia. The number of Russian casualties in the Ukraine invasion is considerably greater than the was suffered in Afghanistan.

 

[Ian H]

In common with several of the former USSR countries, including next door neighbours Russia and Belarus, Ukraine has retained its high level of corruption since the break-up of that Union.

Sorting that out in the current war situation is going to be even more difficult than in peacetime and, while not irrelevant, is probably not the main priority at the moment.

Getting rid of old, entrenched habits is not easy.

The thing is that Zelensky hadn't done anything about it before the war and his popularity was plummeting. The war saved him in that respect.

 

[Rusty Nails]

The thing is that Zelensky hadn't done anything about it before the war and his popularity was plummeting. The war saved him in that respect.

None of that negates what I said in my post...especially the last sentence.

Corruption, once endemic under Soviet rule, does not disappear overnight, or even in a few years.

It is impossible to know if it "saved" him because Russian invasion changed everything. Popularity ratings rise and fall during a term of office and the only one that matters is an election, which has been impossible for the last few years.

 

[Pinno718]

The thing is that Zelensky hadn't done anything about it before the war and his popularity was plummeting. The war saved him in that respect.

Zelensky's ability to handle this war is proven. He was a comedic entertainer who's been thrown into a completely different role as commander in chief having stood for election as 'A political outsider, Zelenskyy positioned himself as an anti-establishment and anti-corruption figure'.
I am certain the conflict dominates and supersedes everything.
Perhaps there's a bit more breathing space and people are looking at corruption instead of being pre-occupied with potential total invasion.
I cannot fault him. I don't know how you conduct a war with all the international requirements and simultaneously deal with corruption. Although he has to an extent - firing certain individuals but I am sure he can't simply fire too many key players even if the are corrupt. We don't know the inner complexities.

 

[Ian H]

Zelensky's ability to handle this war is proven. He was a comedic entertainer who's been thrown into a completely different role as commander in chief having stood for election as 'A political outsider, Zelenskyy positioned himself as an anti-establishment and anti-corruption figure'.
I am certain the conflict dominates and supersedes everything.
Perhaps there's a bit more breathing space and people are looking at corruption instead of being pre-occupied with potential total invasion.
I cannot fault him. I don't know how you conduct a war with all the international requirements and simultaneously deal with corruption. Although he has to an extent - firing certain individuals but I am sure he can't simply fire too many key players even if the are corrupt. We don't know the inner complexities.

https://www.politico.eu/article/gen-z-protests-volodymyr-zelenskyy-bill-ukraine-war-politics/

and also
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/internati...ers-its-second-day-of-protests_6743687_4.html

 

[Rusty Nails]

https://www.politico.eu/article/gen-z-protests-volodymyr-zelenskyy-bill-ukraine-war-politics/

and also
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/internati...ers-its-second-day-of-protests_6743687_4.html

And your point is?

People, especially young people, are dissatisfied with some things in their country after being at war with Russia for three years?

“In no way do we stand for overthrowing the government, we stand for anti-corruption reform and for protection of what the EuroMaidan revolution has fought for,” Averina said.

After parliament restored the independence of anti-corruption bodies, protesters now plan to continue rallying — this time demanding additional reforms needed for Ukraine’s EU integration and to secure the foreign aid essential to its war effort.

“Our other focus is to push the government to appoint the head of the Bureau of Economic Security,” Averina said. “If they do, we will consider this a victory of active youth and society.””

 

[Ian H]

And your point is?

People, especially young people, are dissatisfied with some things in their country after being at war with Russia for three years?

“In no way do we stand for overthrowing the government, we stand for anti-corruption reform and for protection of what the EuroMaidan revolution has fought for,” Averina said.

After parliament restored the independence of anti-corruption bodies, protesters now plan to continue rallying — this time demanding additional reforms needed for Ukraine’s EU integration and to secure the foreign aid essential to its war effort.

“Our other focus is to push the government to appoint the head of the Bureau of Economic Security,” Averina said. “If they do, we will consider this a victory of active youth and society.””

You'd have to read my earlier post to see the entire point. But essentially, anyone who thinks Ukraine is going to slip seamlessly into a western-style democracy is kidding themselves. This doesn't mean I have much sympathy for the Russian position.

 

[Rusty Nails]

You'd have to read my earlier post to see the entire point. But essentially, anyone who thinks Ukraine is going to slip seamlessly into a western-style democracy is kidding themselves. This doesn't mean I have much sympathy for the Russian position.

I am not sure I have ever seen anyone say that, or even believe it. Years of Soviet rule and corruption, plus ongoing Russian interference in its former partners/subjects cannot easily be erased.

The fact that protests about weakening anti-corruption measures actually took place and look to have influenced the government, which would not be allowed in Russia and some of its neighbours, is evidence that they are moving in the right direction.

I have no sympathy at all for the Russian position, although I understand the reasons for their (or Putin’s) fears and paranoia.

 

[Pblakeney]

You'd have to read my earlier post to see the entire point. But essentially, anyone who thinks Ukraine is going to slip seamlessly into a western-style democracy is kidding themselves. This doesn't mean I have much sympathy for the Russian position.

You'd have to be equally naive to believe there is no corruption in the west.
There may be less, or it may be better hidden, but it exists.

 

[Ian H]

You'd have to be equally naive to believe there is no corruption in the west.
There may be less, or it may be better hidden, but it exists.

You seem to be attributing beliefs to me.

 

[BoldonLad]

You'd have to read my earlier post to see the entire point. But essentially, anyone who thinks Ukraine is going to slip seamlessly into a western-style democracy is kidding themselves. This doesn't mean I have much sympathy for the Russian position.

Have any of the former Eastern Bloc Countries slipped seamlessly into a western style democracy, In the time since the demise of the USSR?, I think East Germany may have achieved it, since re-unification.

A bit of aspiration does no harm, does it?

 

[Pblakeney]

You seem to be attributing beliefs to me.

Fair. It was meant to be a generalisation, not personal.
I just think that looking at corruption in Ukraine in disdain is a bit blinkered.