Donald I, emperor of the world.

[CXRAndy]

No I'm having fun. 😁

 

[HMS_Dave]

No I'm having fun. 😁

So am i, i haven't laughed so much at a person for quite some time.

 

[AuroraSaab]

OK then, so where do non-binary or interex athletes fit in here?

Where the system operates, if they aren't happy competing in the Women's category female athletes who identify as non binary can compete in the Open category (which includes anybody biologically male, and anybody biologically female who chooses to compete in it). Male athletes who identify as non binary can only compete in the Open category. Male dsd athletes would compete in the Open category; female dsd athletes can choose from either Open or Womens (because dsd athletes are still only male or female). It's because sport is played by bodies not identities.

 

[Bazzer]

MAGA now eating one of their own Supreme Court justices, because they decided a case against the Trump administration in the USAid case.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...amy-coney-barrett-supreme-court-b2711227.html
Interesting how the MAGA ire is directed to Amy Coney-Barrett and not John Roberts, who also decided against the Trump administration in the same case. Roberts was the SC Justice who effectively gave Trump his get out of jail free card and of course he isn't a powerful woman.

 

[monkers]

It's not false information that Killips has taken podium places from women or displaced women in rankings for the last 4 years. Seems a bit hate-y to think the women Killips displaced didn't deserve fairness.

Goalposts moved. It's a Trump thread. We were discussing what Trump said, which of course was false but propaganda useful to him to recruit Maga morons who'll believe anything.

 

[AuroraSaab]

... the implication being that because Trump was wrong about that one race he was wrong in general about Killips. Killips has regularly come 1st when Killips rides in the Women's category. It was you that introduced Killips to this thread - in order to point out that Trump made a mistake - so let's not be disingenuous and pretend that Killips hasn't won plenty of other races that did have a Womens category.

https://www.road-results.com/racer/207220

 

[monkers]

... the implication being that because Trump was wrong about that one race he was wrong in general about Killips. Killips has regularly come 1st when Killips rides in the Women's category. It was you that introduced Killips to this thread - in order to point out that Trump made a mistake - so let's not be disingenuous and pretend that Killips hasn't won plenty of other races that did have a Womens category.

https://www.road-results.com/racer/207220

Trump lied. You have a problem with me calling out liars. I wonder why.

 

[C R]

As seen on PZ Myers blog

 

[AuroraSaab]

Trump lied. You have a problem with me calling out liars. I wonder why.

I have a problem with people being disingenuous. Killips displaced women from the podium 17 times out of 31 races, often coming first. Trump picked the wrong race.

As seen on PZ Myers blog

Because women and girls can't have fairness in sports until we've eradicated diseases?

Wait your turn, ladies, wait your turn ...

 

[monkers]

I have a friend in Brighton. She is bisexual, but is now happily married to a man. She is a cisgender woman, and has 3 children. She does not believe in 'gender identity' since she has no sense of it she says. My friend used to be a time trialist, a fairly serious competitor.

Years ago when she signed up to the CTT, the ruling body, she stated on the application form that she is 'non-binary'. Now that they have changed the rules, my friend has stop racing. The CTT said that despite not being born male, not having been through a male puberty, not ever having taken testosterone, not having elevated testosterone levels, she can not race in the female class. She must race in the ''open'' class with men. She is a 'biological' or cisgender woman who does not experience gender identity who is being discriminated against for that reason.

This is how damaging it has become because governing or ruling bodies who will claim to be ''rigorously following the science'' have become obsessed about not being on the wrong side of gender critical women.

Her view is that the so-called scientific research that the CTT are using is deeply flawed. She states that the tests used to evaluate retained male advantage use data obtained from measuring hand grip strength. Using bathroom scales she has shown that she has a higher grip strength than her husband. She works as an electrician, her husband is a pen pusher.

Cyclists do not train by concentrating on hand grip strength or upper body strength. Instead they rely upon core strength and leg strength and resistance to fatigue. On the latter, the science says this is something that women are overall better at than men.

My friend is very upset with the CTT and angry at any suggestion that trans people are responsible for the absurdity of the CTT.

 

[monkers]

have a problem with people being disingenuous. Killips displaced women from the podium 17 times out of 31 races, often coming first. Trump picked the wrong race.

Trump lied. Just like you. Killips has not been disingenuous. Killips is not able to race in UCI events in the women's category since 2022, and you know this, because you've already stated it. From Trump's point of view he used the right event because it is since the UCI ban. Trump lied because he had an agenda and because he knows that fear works to incite hatred, just as you do.

He was promising to ban trans women from cycling in the women's category knowing that the UCI had already done so.

You've extensively used lies to incite hatred of trans women. You're still lying.

 

[icowden]

Trump lied. You have a problem with me calling out liars. I wonder why.

No. Trump is just as usual uninformed and parroting what he has read / what he has been told.

I have pointed this out before. A lie requires intent to deceive. Repeating ignorance is not lying.

Killips did not Race in the Arizona 800 in either the mens or womens categories. They set a course record outside of the official event. That's all.

Now to be fair, Austin Kilips wrote and excellent op-ed for the Guardian pointing out that she was not intending to take records away from women and was specifically targeting events where gender is largely irrelevant - solo endurance rides etc (which explains why she did a solo course ride outside of the official gendered event) and also made a large point that if the people making a song and dance about it cared that much about women's sport, why didn't they actually fund it instead of making professional female athletes do a day job as well as training.

 

[icowden]

Years ago when she signed up to the CTT, the ruling body, she stated on the application form that she is 'non-binary'. Now that they have changed the rules, my friend has stop racing. The CTT said that despite not being born male, not having been through a male puberty, not ever having taken testosterone, not having elevated testosterone levels, she can not race in the female class. She must race in the ''open'' class with men. She is a 'biological' or cisgender woman who does not experience gender identity who is being discriminated against for that reason.

You made that point before, and it isn't true. She is quite entitled to race in the women's class but has to put down that she is a woman, which she is. That's all. Her exclusion is entirely self-imposed on a point of her own principal because the organisers won't do things her way. That's one of the more contentious issues in this debate - the constant demand that everything must change to suit a small minority of people or else.

Her view is that the so-called scientific research that the CTT are using is deeply flawed. She states that the tests used to evaluate retained male advantage use data obtained from measuring hand grip strength. Using bathroom scales she has shown that she has a higher grip strength than her husband. She works as an electrician, her husband is a pen pusher.

So she doesn't understand the concept of outliers?

Cyclists do not train by concentrating on hand grip strength or upper body strength. Instead they rely upon core strength and leg strength and resistance to fatigue. On the latter, the science says this is something that women are overall better at than men.

But the results of cycling races suggest that this is something than men are overall better at than women. How many cycling races of any kind are there where a woman holds the record?

My friend is very upset with the CTT and angry at any suggestion that trans people are responsible for the absurdity of the CTT.

Again, I'd argue that she fails to see the wider picture of vast unfairness to biological women if those who have been through male puberty are able to compete against them.

 

[monkers]

No. Trump is just as usual uninformed and parroting what he has read / what he has been told.

I have pointed this out before. A lie requires intent to deceive. Repeating ignorance is not lying.

Killips did not Race in the Arizona 800 in either the mens or womens categories. They set a course record outside of the official event. That's all.

Now to be fair, Austin Kilips wrote and excellent op-ed for the Guardian pointing out that she was not intending to take records away from women and was specifically targeting events where gender is largely irrelevant - solo endurance rides etc (which explains why she did a solo course ride outside of the official gendered event) and also made a large point that if the people making a song and dance about it cared that much about women's sport, why didn't they actually fund it instead of making professional female athletes do a day job as well as training.

OK thanks Ian, opinions will vary but facts will not. So I'm going to just pick you up on this part,

They set a course record outside of the official event. That's all.

It's not even that.

What the Arizona Trail Race Actually Is

For those unfamiliar, the Arizona Trail Race (AZTR) is an unofficial, self-supported bikepacking event where riders tackle 800 miles of some of the toughest terrain in the country. It’s not a sanctioned race, meaning there are no cash prizes, no official governing body, and no gender-based restrictions on participation.

In other words, Killips didn’t take away a victory from another woman, nor was she competing in a field of women-only racers. She completed an individual time trial (ITT), a self-paced attempt outside of the formal group race. Her record stood until Leveika broke it a few months later. That’s just how endurance racing works—people ride, people set records, and then someone else comes along and breaks them. That’s not political. That’s sport.

https://aztrail.org/fact-checking-trumps-claims-the-real-story-behind-the-arizona-trail-record/

 

[monkers]

You made that point before, and it isn't true. She is quite entitled to race in the women's class but has to put down that she is a woman, which she is. That's all. Her exclusion is entirely self-imposed on a point of her own principal because the organisers won't do things her way. That's one of the more contentious issues in this debate - the constant demand that everything must change to suit a small minority of people or else.

My friend has had a lengthy exchange of letters with the CTT. They will not move. I'm going to ask Co-pilot for quickness, it has many flaws but is useful for this kind of thing.

''Under CTT rules are non-binary cisgender women required to race in the open class?''

Yes, the Cycling Time Trials (CTT) policy does indeed require non-binary individuals, including non-binary cisgender women, to compete in the Open Category. This means they would not be allowed to compete in the women's category and would have to race against men and other non-binary individuals.