F*ck the Tories: a Thread Dedicated to Suella Braverman

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AuroraSaab

Legendary Member
They are entitled to live as their acquired gender (whatever that even means) , but schools aren't required to accommodate them living in their acquired gender by not enforcing the exemptions on single sex spaces that are permitted by the Equality Act. They can accommodate things like name changes if they wish but they aren't obliged to. Nobody is going to be denied a GRC at 18 because their high school wouldn't let them change with the opposite sex for PE in Year 11.
 

monkers

Guru
They are entitled to live as their acquired gender (whatever that even means) , but schools aren't required to accommodate them living in their acquired gender by not enforcing the exemptions on single sex spaces that are permitted by the Equality Act. They can accommodate things like name changes if they wish but they aren't obliged to. Nobody is going to be denied a GRC at 18 because their high school wouldn't let them change with the opposite sex for PE in Year 11.

The schools are asking - to paraphrase - 'where in law are we permitted to deny them? The NSPCC and the NEU say we should not stand in their way, The Children's Act says the welfare of the child shall be paramount, but we have activists and protestors to contend with. Legal guidance now please.' And then Braverman intervenes where it is not her ministerial remit, and everyone with a brain thinks she's an idiot. The Commission seem clueless but under pressure from known transphobes in the cabinet to make an interpretation that they can not make in line with current law. Are we there yet?

What are the legal provisions relevant to school dress codes?​

The Equality Act 2010 prohibits schools from imposing a dress code which gives rise to direct or indirect discrimination in respect of a pupil or staff member’s protected characteristics, for example age, disability, gender reassignment, race, religion or belief, sex or sexual orientation.

Schools have a public sector equality duty to eliminate discrimination, advance equality of opportunity and foster good relations between people with different protected characteristics.

Articles 9 and 10 of the Human Rights Act 1998 provide individuals with a right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion and the right to freedom of expression respectively. These rights are qualified, however, which means your rights are subject to the competing rights of others to the same.

https://neu.org.uk/advice/classroom/dress-code
 
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AuroraSaab

Legendary Member
That's uniform. Schools are entitled under the Equality Act to use it's exemptions to preserve single sex spaces. They don't have to abandon that to accommodate someone's acquired/chosen gender identity, whether staff or pupil. We've discussed this a hundred times.
 

monkers

Guru
That's uniform. Schools are entitled under the Equality Act to use it's exemptions to preserve single sex spaces. They don't have to abandon that to accommodate someone's acquired/chosen gender identity, whether staff or pupil. We've discussed this a hundred times.

And you've had replies on each occasion.

In a nutshell, Braverman had used her role as an activist and had been speaking outside of her remit. While AG her remit should have been to work behind the scenes to give advice to government as required by them. Instead Braverman was agitating, giving speeches and offering her interpretation of law publicly. Instead government should have been using the advice to prepare Bills to put before parliament to consider.

To outsiders, it may have appeared to them that these were the judgements of the person most supreme to give legal interpretation. However she was not, that role falls to the Supreme Court, and then on to the ECtHR. Braverman was using her position as an agitator by-passing the legislative and judicial processes of the UK. This is undemocratic, and possibly a breach of the ministerial code (though I haven't bothered to look at that to see).

On the face of it, people may tend to think that what Braverman said was and remains 'the law', but many of us consider that her advice was unsafe since she blatantly held and continues to hold an anti-trans rights attitude, and we know that she likes to throw red meat to some factions in the pursuit of her own political ambitions.

I've been a retired person for a few years now. Therefore the latest guidance doesn't just come across my desk anymore, and I may not be aware of the latest provisions. However, I am aware of the relevant legislation at the point of my retirement. Further more, a quick search and chats with former colleagues makes me think that other in some updates to safeguarding, things haven't changed too much. The updates seem more related to grooming for terrorism, so let's agree to set those aside.

The single most important act pertaining to children is the Children's Act. This contains a form of words which state that 'the welfare of the child shall be paramount'. The important thing to note is that part of the wording 'child' (singular). In the case of considering the rights of an individual trans child, this applies. Since the wording of the act is such that parliament agreed that the act uses the word 'paramount', most consider it supreme.

In the case of schools, the public sector duty act applies. Schools also are required to safeguard an individual not just from discrimination under the EqA but also safeguard them from other harms such as bullying, including cyber bullying.

In the judgements made by Braverman she makes no attempt to balance the various laws to reach a valid judgement. Instead she chose one law, and chose to make a convincing sounding reading of the law. Again her reading was flawed. Where Braverman states that it is not unlawful for a school to exclude trans children from their schools or include them in certain activities, she uses a form of words to disguise her single-sided reading.

Saying that there is no breech of the EqA if a school refuses to accommodate a trans child within that school, is not the same as saying that there is no legal breech in doing so.

Clearly Braverman's view is not balanced. The Commission have been asked for their advice. Aside from the fact that the chair of the Commission is a political appointment to what should be an independent body, the commission in placed in an invidious position. This is because its remit is to interpret rights under the Human Rights Act and the Equality Act - but not the Childrens Act.

There are two Proper routes available for the government to correctly act, either through the production of a bill put before both houses of parliament, or by listening to judgements made by the Supreme Court and/or the European Court of Human Rights.

Under our uncodified constitution and parliamentary traditions (see Erskine May) there is the basis of our democratic procedures. However it is reasonable to argue that Braverman was never elected to her position as AG or Home Secretary. Johnson was elected by the people of his constituency. He hadn't said too much about trans rights, it was not a manifesto issue, and not in the Queen's speech. It became the policy of Braverman with some support from Johnson. Braverman was elected by the people of Fareham to act as their constituency MP, not to the position of AG. It is clear that she setting herself up as supreme ruler. This is authoritarianism on stilts and steroids.

Throughout this thread I've carefully setting out my stall. Where errors have been made with regard to the law and legal opinions I have always done my best to correct the false claims of others.

I declared an interest for the sake of honesty, I raised my niece, a trans child. So yes I have an interest. I also declared that I am not a lawyer, therefore an amateur with a keen interest, and that my niece and other family members are in fact lawyers.

There have been allegations that I am a 'trans activist'. This is false. There have been claims from you that I clearly 'do not care for women and girls'. This is not just false, but mendacious; a clear attempt at smearing the character of someone who does not agree with your incorrect interpretation on points of law. These have not been single issues, but ongoing abuses from the time I entered the thread. But how you complain when low-level abuse is levelled back, simply by me calling you 'an idiot' when you contradict yourself, and then so often.

I reclused myself from questions on sport, because these are issues where I have no helpful knowledge. And yet, you've persisted with all manner of character attacks on me based on assumption and presumption. At one time I happened to say that I felt British Cycling had treated Emily Bridges unfairly, and I gave my reasons.

It doesn't matter what evidence you are presented with, no matter its source or quality, it is simply batted away without consideration if it does not suit your single-minded agenda with no consideration for nuance or balance.

You have this habit to simply hijack threads to make further mention of what is clearly an obsession.

These things taken together demonstrate, despite your assertions to the contrary, you act from prejudice alone.

[Added to edit] ... the correct source of advice in the circumstances to act upon was the advice of all party select committee. In my opinion Theresa May was thoughtful and acted democratically in deciding that the decision should be made by placing a bill before parliament.
 
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Bromptonaut

Bromptonaut

Rohan Man
That's uniform. Schools are entitled under the Equality Act to use it's exemptions to preserve single sex spaces. They don't have to abandon that to accommodate someone's acquired/chosen gender identity, whether staff or pupil. We've discussed this a hundred times.

Single sex spaces are only part of it and how they work for gender incongruent people is stuff over which you and I will have to agree to differ.

Suella's argument seems/seemed to be that the school can (and should) call them Dick and oblige them to ea male clothes - uniform or not. That's the bit I say is nonsense on stilts both practically and legally.
 
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Bromptonaut

Bromptonaut

Rohan Man
Nobody is going to be denied a GRC at 18 because their high school wouldn't let them change with the opposite sex for PE in Year 11.

You're obsessed with where people change and which loo they use.

In order to get a GRC one has to live in the acquired gender for 2 years. Whether you change with the females (to me the same sex) perhaps with some reasonable adjustments for privacy is not a clincher for whether you 'pass' or 'fail' the 2 year thing. If the road is to that 2 year thing barred becuase you're obliged to be Dick in terms of how you dress, behave and are treated by your school until you're 18 then you can't get a GRC until 20.
 

monkers

Guru
You're obsessed with where people change and which loo they use.

In order to get a GRC one has to live in the acquired gender for 2 years. Whether you change with the females (to me the same sex) perhaps with some reasonable adjustments for privacy is not a clincher for whether you 'pass' or 'fail' the 2 year thing. If the road is to that 2 year thing barred becuase you're obliged to be Dick in terms of how you dress, behave and are treated by your school until you're 18 then you can't get a GRC until 20.

I have to agree with the possible exception of a child being home schooled.
 

AuroraSaab

Legendary Member
The single most important act pertaining to children is the Children's Act. This contains a form of words which state that 'the welfare of the child shall be paramount'.
It doesn't mean the rights of any individual child should override the rights of every other individual child in a school though.

The EHRC have clarified that people can be excluded from single sex spaces on the basis of birth sex. This applies to schools as well. The rest of your post is the usual verbosity that adds nothing, with a few personal comments chucked in as usual.
 

AuroraSaab

Legendary Member
You're obsessed with where people change and which loo they use.
I could argue that you seem obsessed with getting those born male into female spaces. Single sex spaces don't matter to you, and that's fine. They do matter to some people, and they often matter very much to women and girls.

Changing rooms and toilets are likely to be the main points of conflict between what an individual child who identifies as the opposite sex wants and what other pupils want, so yeah loos and PE changing rooms are particularly relevant in a discussion on schools.

In order to get a GRC one has to live in the acquired gender for 2 years. Whether you change with the females (to me the same sex) perhaps with some reasonable adjustments for privacy is not a clincher for whether you 'pass' or 'fail' the 2 year thing. If the road is to that 2 year thing barred becuase you're obliged to be Dick in terms of how you dress, behave and are treated by your school until you're 18 then you can't get a GRC until 20.

School is 6 hours, Monday to Friday, 36 weeks of the year. Not having your wishes accommodated for the limited times when your sex is relevant (which yes will be toilets, changing rooms, sports teams) whilst in school does not stop you 'living as your acquired gender' and is unlikely to prevent you getting a GRC.

You do realise the refusal rate for GRC's is less than 2%?
 

monkers

Guru
It doesn't mean the rights of any individual child should override the rights of every other individual child in a school though.

The EHRC have clarified that people can be excluded from single sex spaces on the basis of birth sex. This applies to schools as well. The rest of your post is the usual verbosity that adds nothing, with a few personal comments chucked in as usual.

But as I clearly stated, it provides a context for balance. One can not simply quote the exemptions from one act, pretend that it does not intend a high bar; and then proceed to argue that the opinion of one person with known views to transphobia just brush away other legal acts and opinions.

I've also told you in the past, that having been in managerial roles in secondary, further and higher education places that many practical solutions can be found without recourse to legal interpretations. I've previously given example, but there is this insistence from you, that whatever the opinion of an unelected AG or an unelected chair of a commission happen to say, there are other considerations. These are not the only opinions to consider. What does the chair of the children's commission have to say? Or do we only have to listen to the opinions of those in people put in place as political choices of those who hold authority without independent appointment?

There are correct democratic procedures, they are not being followed. This is neither by accident or ignorance, these are happening due to political interference in our democratic systems. I worry about that, just as I worry about women and girls, men and boys.

If we don't worry about the way in which the decisions to protect our human rights are made, we are on a very dangerous path.
 
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monkers

Guru
I could argue that you seem obsessed with getting those born male into female spaces. Single sex spaces don't matter to you, and that's fine. They do matter to some people, and they often matter very much to women and girls.

Changing rooms and toilets are likely to be the main points of conflict between what an individual child who identifies as the opposite sex wants and what other pupils want, so yeah loos and PE changing rooms are particularly relevant in a discussion on schools.



School is 6 hours, Monday to Friday, 36 weeks of the year. Not having your wishes accommodated for the limited times when your sex is relevant (which yes will be toilets, changing rooms, sports teams) whilst in school does not stop you 'living as your acquired gender' and is unlikely to prevent you getting a GRC.

You do realise the refusal rate for GRC's is less than 2%?

Of these, changing rooms are the only real issue, and then if these are communal areas. While I will agree that many (a number I can't put an actual figure on) will say that they 'don't want to change in front of a boy', it is as likely that the trans child will say that they 'don't wish to change in front of others be they boys or girls'. To suggest that trans kids will insist on changing in communal areas with others is not so likely, though I agree not impossible. There are practical ways to accommodate this without recourse to bigotry.
 

monkers

Guru
This is what happens when you allow males into girls toilets/changing rooms

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...rand-jury-not-finding-school-responsible.html

Daily Mail article with 'Woke' as the first word and you are on it. There's a surprise! (sarcasm for the avoidance of doubt).

UK laws do not apply in the USA, just as USA laws do not apply here.

A 'kilt' is not female clothing, but male clothing.

The assailant is not reported as having a trans identity.

The main offence was that the school tried to cover up a rape incident (disgusting) and they lied (disgraceful).

The assailant was not 'permitted to be there'.

Summary - irrelevant but all part of your intention to whip up moral panic.
 

CXRAndy

Veteran
It was in a mixed toilet area instead of single sex toilets. Other news outlets say he was wearing a dress

The behaviour could just as easily happen in the UK as anywhere when you give permission for males to access female toilets/changing areas.

There is confusion being created by mixed messages.

It should be made absolutely clear males are not allowed in female toilets or changing room-full stop

The cover up from Loudham is similar in the way schools behave in the UK.

The case is now subject to a $30 million lawsuit against the school education
 
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monkers

Guru
It was in a mixed toilet area instead of single sex toilets. Other news outlets say he was wearing a dress

The behaviour could just as easily happen in the UK as anywhere when you give permission for males to access female toilets/changing areas.

There is confusion being created by mixed messages.

It should be made absolutely clear males are not allowed in female toilets or changing room-full stop

The cover up from Loudham is similar in the way schools behave in the UK.

The case is now subject to a $30 million lawsuit against the school education

The clothing is reported in your link as a 'kilt', maybe it was a kilt pattern skirt. Whatever, it is not relevant unless or until there is evidence that the assailant has a trans identity.

From the same source as yours in a different article ...

the mother of skirt-wearing teen who raped a female classmate in girls' bathroom says he is a troubled boy who identifies as male and just wanted sex​


  • She said his actions were that of a heterosexual, hormonal teen, who had consensual sex with the girl twice before

You intend moral panic.

A heterosexual hormonal boy walks into a a girl's loo and rapes her. Boy leaves that school, attends a second school and enters a loo that is 'transgender friendly', walks into the loo and rapes a second girl.

The common denominator is nothing to do with trans, but of a rapist not being prevented from repeating his first offence.

The big story is how and why did this second offence happen? It wasn't that it was 'permitted' (your choice of words) but because the adults in charge did nothing to prevent it.

When heterosexual cisgender males rape females, it is not the fault of trans kids.

When girls are raped by boys, it is not because of what they are wearing (victim blaming).

When males use disguises to impersonate females and they rape, it is not the fault of trans kids.

There is plenty of evidence that trans people are frequently subject to rape and murder, but scant evidence that they commit rape and murder, especially so in the case of trans kids.
 
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