Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

If you look back through the thread, N answered the question previously, because I asked it.
My understanding is that

Transgender is when you truly wish to become a different gender and may move on to physical transitioning.

Transwomen also includes those the wider group of men who adopt a female persona or identity but who do not want to permanently live as the other gender.

It's actually the other way round.

Best way to think of it is that 'trans' is short for ''transsexual'' as the term used in the GRA and other older law. This is now seen as outdated by both trans people and gender critical people, because although having essentially different views on inclusion, both sides agree that it is not possible for a person to change their reproductive sex.

Transgender is a problematic word since it is the umbrella term for anybody who presents in a way other than their biological sex. It doesn't apply to the husband and wife who go to a live Rocky Horror show and the husband dresses as Rocky for fun, and she crossdresses as another Rocky H show character. Some transgender people never present and remain in the closet.

Individuals can have very different drivers both sexual and otherwise, so it really is about the most diverse group of people. Trying to treat them as a single group is like stubbonly trying to fit all the pieces of a Fisher Price shape sifting toy all through the square hole and blaming failure on all the pieces for not being square.

Trans people are the people with the strongest and most irrepressible urge to change, where it is felt there is no other choice other than death. The suicide ideation is the component that fetches out the ''mental illness'' component that means that mental health management becomes a feature - as in my own case.

This is the distinction that the WHO experts have tried to make operational in treatment. Modern expert psychiatric opinion is that the being 'other' is not the mental health condition, but the despair of societal non-acceptance.

 

[monkers]

Is a trans woman a real biological woman, or a male pretending to be female?

Actually neither - but don't worry your head about it lest it might explode.

 

[CXRAndy]

Trans people are the people with the strongest and most irrepressible urge to change

They have mental problems which needs to be addressed

 

[CXRAndy]

Actually neither - but don't worry your head about it lest it might explode.

You failed your own truth statement

 

[monkers]

They have mental problems which needs to be addressed

Sometimes or maybe even often - it's cause more often than not lies in despair. Societal non-acceptance of others is the usual but not only cause.

 

[AndyRM]

It's also worth pointing out that everyone has mental problems, it's not an exclusive party. Literally everyone on the planet does.

 

[monkers]

You failed your own truth statement

No. Trans women are women, just not reproductive women. Gender critical people say that gender is a social construct. If 'man' or 'woman' is a social construct, then it must follow that any person can adopt one or the other or neither or be fluid.

 

[CXRAndy]

It's also worth pointing out that everyone has mental problems, it's not an exclusive party. Literally everyone on the planet does.

You're probably right, it's just most handle it, others it spills out into more serious issues

 

[CXRAndy]

No. Trans women are women, just not reproductive women. Gender critical people say that gender is a social construct. If 'man' or 'woman' is a social construct, then it must follow that any person can adopt one or the other or neither or be fluid.

 

[monkers]

You're probably right, it's just most handle it, others it spills out into more serious issues

Maybe if people stopped being 'dicks' to people who just happen to be 'other', the world would become a better place?

 

[AndyRM]

Maybe if people stopped being 'dicks' to people who just happen to be 'other', the world would become a better place?

This. It's pretty simple really.

Take no sh!t, do no harm is a pretty reasonable ethos to live by, but apparently it's pretty tricky.

 

[monkers]

This. It's pretty simple really.

Take no sh!t, do no harm is a pretty reasonable ethos to live by, but apparently it's pretty tricky.

It's essence is found in Articles 1, 19, and 30 of the UNDHR.

 

[icowden]

It's actually the other way round.

So close!

This is the distinction that the WHO experts have tried to make operational in treatment. Modern expert psychiatric opinion is that the being 'other' is not the mental health condition, but the despair of societal non-acceptance.

Although of course the feeling of being "other" is far, far broader than just the Trans movement. Neurodiverse people often feel as though they are different and "outside" the group. I have never once been to a party and felt like I really belonged there. I can go through the social niceties but I always feel like an observer playing a game of social chess so that I'm not found out. I assume normal people just enjoy their drinks, chat and dancing.

The part that I find challenging in the Trans debate is whether, if someone is suffering from a form of dysmorphia whether through trauma or otherwise, using surgical and medical techniques to try to change one's actual body is the right thing. Ultimately, that decision should be between patient and doctor, but my personal view is that we should stop trying to adjust ourselves through technology and accept ourselves for who and what we are. I feel the same about cosmetic surgery (unless used as part of a reconstruction for injury or health).

Obviously the main area of contention is the overlap between the rights of people who feel that they are a different gender with those that don't, and how best to manage that. The current approach seems to be shouting or shutting down conversation, which weirdly doesn't seem to be working. I see JK Rowling described as a TERF and Trans-Hater, but if you read her output it is pretty much always thought through and well argued, whether or not you agree with it.

Ultimately there are circumstances where there will be competing ideals, but there are often ways to achieve a happy medium.

 

[AuroraSaab]

No. Trans women are women, just not reproductive women. Gender critical people say that gender is a social construct. If 'man' or 'woman' is a social construct, then it must follow that any person can adopt one or the other or neither or be fluid.

Man and women aren't social constructs. There aren't 2 kinds of women, reproductive and non reproductive. The reason you try to disconnect the word woman from biology is so that a man can pretend to be one.

 

[AndyRM]

So close!

Although of course the feeling of being "other" is far, far broader than just the Trans movement. Neurodiverse people often feel as though they are different and "outside" the group. I have never once been to a party and felt like I really belonged there. I can go through the social niceties but I always feel like an observer playing a game of social chess so that I'm not found out. I assume normal people just enjoy their drinks, chat and dancing.

The part that I find challenging in the Trans debate is whether, if someone is suffering from a form of dysmorphia whether through trauma or otherwise, using surgical and medical techniques to try to change one's actual body is the right thing. Ultimately, that decision should be between patient and doctor, but my personal view is that we should stop trying to adjust ourselves through technology and accept ourselves for who and what we are. I feel the same about cosmetic surgery (unless used as part of a reconstruction for injury or health).

Obviously the main area of contention is the overlap between the rights of people who feel that they are a different gender with those that don't, and how best to manage that. The current approach seems to be shouting or shutting down conversation, which weirdly doesn't seem to be working. I see JK Rowling described as a TERF and Trans-Hater, but if you read her output it is pretty much always thought through and well argued, whether or not you agree with it.

Ultimately there are circumstances where there will be competing ideals, but there are often ways to achieve a happy medium.

Far too sensible a post.