Gender again. Sorry!

[Electric_Andy]

Feel free to campaign for additional mixed sex facilities for those who do not wish to use the spaces allocated for their biological sex.

I'm trying to imagine what it would be like on both sides.
Example 1: A biological woman who dresses "manly" would probably not get any flack if using a woman's toilet or changing room and would probably feel relatively safe. As long as they don't appear so manly to the extent of passing for a man (and potentially being "reported" for using the wrong toilet).
Example 2: A biological man, dressed as a woman, in a male toilet, especially in a pub at night, is unlikely to feel safe. Just because, men are often violent cretins and women generally aren't.

If it were my son for example, I would not like to think he had to use a male toilet whilst dressed as a woman in the local meat market nightclub. I would prefer he had his own space where his appearance would likely be "normal" and tolerated

 

[AuroraSaab]

They said the same about disabled toilets but somehow service providers managed to implement it. It's not a problem for women to solve by giving men access to their spaces, though is it.

Yes, women have missed out. Saying 'Men have been crossing women's boundaries for years so what's the problem?' isn't a good argument for allowing them to continue to do so.

I'm trying to imagine what it would be like on both sides.
Example 1: A biological woman who dresses "manly" would probably not get any flack if using a woman's toilet or changing room and would probably feel relatively safe. As long as they don't appear so manly to the extent of passing for a man (and potentially being "reported" for using the wrong toilet).
Example 2: A biological man, dressed as a woman, in a male toilet, especially in a pub at night, is unlikely to feel safe. Just because, men are often violent cretins and women generally aren't.

If it were my son for example, I would not like to think he had to use a male toilet whilst dressed as a woman in the local meat market nightclub. I would prefer he had his own space where his appearance would likely be "normal" and tolerated

That's why a third mixed sex option is preferable. It's been suggested for years.Trans organisations reject this solution though.

Regardless, male violence is not a problem for women to solve. The argument that some make (not you) that these men must be allowed into women's spaces because male ones aren't safe expects women to be human shields for men that other men don't like. They aren't. It's also illogical - men are a risk to other men; except when they're in women's spaces, then men become harmless.

Once again it's all about toilets though.
Perhaps you guys didn't know there were parts of the country where rape crisis services wouldn't guarantee that their support groups won't include men, where women went to meetings to discuss their rape and found themselves sat with a man.
Hopefully that won't happen anymore.

 

[icowden]

That's why a third mixed sex option is preferable. It's been suggested for years.Trans organisations reject this solution though.

As does anyone with more than two braincells to rub together. That third option of yours might work in a motorway service station or a department store, but for the majority of small restaurants, theatres, etc, there isn't room.

Therefore the ultimate result of your crusade will be fewer Ladies toilets, not more. It's cheaper and easier to make a toilet unisex than it is to find space that doesn't exist so that you can supply a toilet to an audience that may not be there.

 

[Electric_Andy]

As does anyone with more than two braincells to rub together. That third option of yours might work in a motorway service station or a department store, but for the majority of small restaurants, theatres, etc, there isn't room.

Therefore the ultimate result of your crusade will be fewer Ladies toilets, not more. It's cheaper and easier to make a toilet unisex than it is to find space that doesn't exist so that you can supply a toilet to an audience that may not be there.

That's not so much of an issue in small places though is it? I mean, many cafes and restaurants etc that I've been in are just one lockable WC that can be used by anyone. For those where it's a problem, I guess it's like any other regulation - you need to pay to have it installed or risk being fined, or risk no-one going there because the facilities aren't safe

 

[icowden]

That's not so much of an issue in small places though is it? I mean, many cafes and restaurants etc that I've been in are just one lockable WC that can be used by anyone. For those where it's a problem, I guess it's like any other regulation - you need to pay to have it installed or risk being fined, or risk no-one going there because the facilities aren't safe

but where they are just big enough to have a separate toilet for men and ladies, they aren't going to install a special transgender toilet - they are just going to make the ladies toilet or disabled toilet unisex to comply with the rules.

 

[AuroraSaab]

As does anyone with more than two braincells to rub together. That third option of yours might work in a motorway service station or a department store, but for the majority of small restaurants, theatres, etc, there isn't room.

Pretty sure they found the money and space for disabled toilets when the law changed. They can rub their brain cells together and sort it out.

Therefore the ultimate result of your crusade will be fewer Ladies toilets, not more. It's cheaper and easier to make a toilet unisex than it is to find space that doesn't exist so that you can supply a toilet to an audience that may not be there.

They'll genuinely be women's toilets though. Not unofficially mixed sex, which is what Stonewall et al have been telling service providers is ok for years.

but where they are just big enough to have a separate toilet for men and ladies, they aren't going to install a special transgender toilet - they are just going to make the ladies toilet or disabled toilet unisex to comply with the rules.

It would likely be indirect discrimination under the EA against women to simply make their current facilities unisex, if you don't provide a choice of additional single sex facilities as well.

I find the emphasis on toilets both on here and in the media overall really tiresome. It's trans activist framing. They want to make it all about toilets because men in other women's spaces doesn't evoke much sympathy.

Men in the open women's changing rooms at the baths? Men in women's prisons? Men in lesbian meet up groups? Disabled women who want a same sex carer but find a man turns up? No... let's talk about how not going in the Ladies will make these men sad.

 

[Electric_Andy]

Pretty sure they found the money and space for disabled toilets when the law changed. They can rub their brain cells together and sort it out.



They'll genuinely be women's toilets though. Not unofficially mixed sex, which is what Stonewall et al have been telling service providers is ok for years.



It would likely be indirect discrimination under the EA against women to simply make their current facilities unisex, if you don't provide a choice of additional single sex facilities as well.

I find the emphasis on toilets both on here and in the media overall really tiresome. It's trans activist framing. They want to make it all about toilets because men in other women's spaces doesn't evoke much sympathy.

Men in the open women's changing rooms at the baths? Men in women's prisons? Men in lesbian meet up groups? Disabled women who want a same sex carer but find a man turns up? No... let's talk about how not going in the Ladies will make these men sad.

That is a good summary of the potential issues, for people like me who don't really think about that sort of thing. I highly doubt whether a an MP would think or care either. I wonder who they are consulting on this, and if they are the appropriate people to ask? Like with many things, these things get decided when they only consult people at the top and not the people actually living with the issue

 

[AuroraSaab]

No women or girls were consulted when organisations gave in to pressure from trans activists. Nobody asked female athletes whether they wanted men in their sports. Nobody consulted female prisoners about sharing jails with men, or raped women or victims of domestic violence whether they wanted to discuss their trauma with men present or share a hostel with men.

Can you imagine if it was the other way round?
No institution would fall over itself to prioritise women's feelings over male objections.

And having had a decade of this, the whole narrative today is not about safety, privacy, and dignity being restored to women in many spheres, but instead it's about sad men who now can't pee in the Ladies. That alone tells you that trans activism is mainly by and for the benefit of men.

 

[icowden]

Pretty sure they found the money and space for disabled toilets when the law changed. They can rub their brain cells together and sort it out.

Nope. They didn't. You can't just invent space that you don't have.

They'll genuinely be women's toilets though. Not unofficially mixed sex, which is what Stonewall et al have been telling service providers is ok for years.

Will they be putting security on the door to check that only genuine women are going in there?

It would likely be indirect discrimination under the EA against women to simply make their current facilities unisex, if you don't provide a choice of additional single sex facilities as well.

So they should wave a magic wand and create a new room that doesn't currently exist. Genius.

I find the emphasis on toilets both on here and in the media overall really tiresome. It's trans activist framing. They want to make it all about toilets because men in other women's spaces doesn't evoke much sympathy.

You're the one that keeps banging on about toilets.

Men in the open women's changing rooms at the baths?

Most are unisex changing villages now.

Men in women's prisons?

As has been explained to you prisons are segregated based on risk, not on gender.

Men in lesbian meet up groups?

That can be policed by the individual groups. We don't need a law to ban or allow.

Disabled women who want a same sex carer but find a man turns up?

They can request a same sex carer or different carer if they are unhappy with the carer.

No... let's talk about how not going in the Ladies will make these men sad.

As I said, you are the one that keeps bringing up the topic.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Nope. They didn't. You can't just invent space that you don't have.

Lots of places have managed to. It might take a while but sorting out the logistics is not a reason to say there shouldn't be legislation about it.
'We can't find 2 sq metres for a loo'.
'Better let men go where they like then..'

No.

Will they be putting security on the door to check that only genuine women are going in there?

How did they keep out men but not transwomen before yesterday? How do you keep 25 year olds out of under 13's events? These are not insurmountable problems.

You're basically suggesting these men cannot be trusted to follow the law and respect women's spaces by using a mixed sex facility or service.

Most are unisex changing villages now.

Yes, and those unisex spaces are higher risk for women. I think you know this.

As has been explained to you prisons are segregated based on risk, not on gender.

???? No they are not. They have been segregated by sex for 200 years. Otherwise low risk shoplifting males would be in 'women's' prisons and high risk female murderers would in 'mens' prisons.

That can be policed by the individual groups. We don't need a law to ban or allow.

You need a law because these men do not respect being told no. They make life hell for the women and groups who don't want them there.

They can request a same sex carer or different carer if they are unhappy with the carer.

Not if 'woman' doesn't mean 'biological woman' under the Equality Act they can't.
As we know, there are plenty of examples of organisations following Stonewall training, not the law, and insisting women have no right to say no.

You seem to want the Equality Act to apply in some circumstances but not others, to some groups but not others. That isn't how single sex services etc work. They're either single sex services or they aren't.

 

[icowden]

Lots of places have managed to. It might take a while but sorting out the logistics is not a reason to say there shouldn't be legislation about it
'We can't find 2 sq metres for a loo'.

You obviously don't get out much. There isn't space for more loos in the majority of smaller London Restaurants and most of the Theatres were built a considerable time ago.

How did they keep out men but not transwomen before yesterday?

They didn't. It's always been voluntary. I've used the ladies toilet many times because when my kids were smaller the baby change was always in the ladies.

How do you keep 25 year olds out of under 13's events? These are not insurmountable problems.

It's pretty obvious that a 25 year old isn't under 13. It's visible.

You're basically suggesting these men cannot be trusted to follow the law and respect women's spaces by using a mixed sex facility or service.

No, I'm suggesting that you can't just magic up 4th toilets. Either the Ladies or the Accessible toilet is going to be rebranded.

Yes, and those unisex spaces are higher risk for women. I think you know this.

Nope. There is no evidence for this.

??? No they are not. They have been segregated by sex for 200 years. Otherwise low risk shoplifting males would be in 'women's' prisons and high risk female murderers would in 'mens' prisons

But ultimately there is a risk assessment for people who would be at severe risk in the wrong estate. They end up where they need to be - could be a specialist unit for example.

.You seem to want the Equality Act to apply in some circumstances but not others, to some groups but not others. That isn't how single sex services etc work. They're either single sex services or they aren't.

No, I couldn't really care less. I just think we should stop obsessing about toilets.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You obviously don't get out much. There isn't space for more loos in the majority of smaller London Restaurants and most of the Theatres were built a considerable time ago.

They could partition a bit of the Gents and make it mixed sex then. You wouldn't mind, I'm sure.

They didn't. It's always been voluntary. I've used the ladies toilet many times because when my kids were smaller the baby change was always in the ladies.

Yes and most women are fine with that.
Surely you can see that occasional use by a father with a girl toddler is different from giving access to any man at any time?

It's pretty obvious that a 25 year old isn't under 13. It's visible.

And it's almost always visible that a man is a man.

No, I'm suggesting that you can't just magic up 4th toilets. Either the Ladies or the Accessible toilet is going to be rebranded.

Why can't the Gents be rebranded? Why aren't you giving up something to help out your non conforming brethren?

Nope. There is no evidence for this.

The higher risk to women of mixed sex spaces is well documented.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...g-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

But ultimately there is a risk assessment for people who would be at severe risk in the wrong estate. They end up where they need to be - could be a specialist unit for example.

A male prison isn't the 'wrong estate' for a trans identifying man. The male estate successfully accommodates lots of vulnerable men.

No, I couldn't really care less. I just think we should stop obsessing about toilets.

Ok. If you don't care then maybe you can stop advocating for men to be in women's spaces by pretending that teething difficulties mean the law shouldn't be applied at all.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The Guardian. Comparing women being allowed single sex spaces to an entire race of people being banned from voting, from living in certain areas, from being served in shops, from schools, from sitting at the front of the bus. What an insult to the civil rights struggle.

 

[icowden]

They could partition a bit of the Gents and make it mixed sex then. You wouldn't mind, I'm sure.

I wouldn't but you would. Anyone can use a cubicle. Urinals tend to need a penis.

Surely you can see that occasional use by a father with a girl toddler is different from giving access to any man at any time?

So parents of children are never wrong 'uns. I think the evidence will show you that that is not always the case...

nd it's almost always visible that a man is a man.

But if any woman looks a bit manly she isn't going to be allowed in the ladies?

Why can't the Gents be rebranded? Why aren't you giving up something to help out your non conforming brethren?

Because you don't want to see mens penises.

The higher risk to women of mixed sex spaces is well documented.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...g-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Why are you going to the toilet in swimming pool changing rooms?

 

[AuroraSaab]

I wouldn't but you would. Anyone can use a cubicle. Urinals tend to need a penis.

The service provider could just get rid of urinals altogether. Turn the Gents into a row of mixed sex cubicles. You don't need urinals.

So parents of children are never wrong 'uns. I think the evidence will show you that that is not always the case...

Do you realise how ridiculous this sounds?
You think men who say they are women should be allowed in women's facilities but a man with a toddler shouldn't because he might be a risk to women? The risk remains when a man becomes a parent but disappears when he says 'I'm a woman'?

But if any woman looks a bit manly she isn't going to be allowed in the ladies?

Says who? Your alternative that men use women's spaces because very occasionally a woman might be mistaken at first glance seems a bit ridiculous.

Because you don't want to see mens penises.

As I said, they can do away with urinals if they make the Gents mixed sex.

Why are you going to the toilet in swimming pool changing rooms?

Why are you being deliberately disingenuous and pretending you don't know why toilets are segregated by sex in the first place?

When men - any men - are given access to spaces where women and girls are vulnerable or alone it massively raises the risk to those women and girls.

You only need to look at the news reports for voyeurism in mixed sex bathrooms to see what happens. Where are all the women filming the men with hidden cameras?