Gender again. Sorry!

[mudsticks]

Madness and genius in varying proportions.

I don't quite get it .


If this chap finds us so fascinating 🧐
Or interesting enough, at least to chat about, why does he not just chat to us.

Or is there some kind of voyeuristic / control freakery thing going on??

Would it be just too much, If he actually had to interact, and not be able to curate / bend / reinterpret the conversation along his own particular groove.??

And there was us thinking we might be a tad cliquey ??

 

[newfhouse]

If this chap finds us so fascinating 🧐
Or interesting enough, at least to chat about, why does he not just chat to us.

Where’s the fun in that?

 

[AuroraSaab]

You mean the article is wrong because someone on Twitter says so?

Well they are a biologist and they are defending a view held by the vast majority of biologists so really it's you who needs to provide the peer reviewed scientific evidence that disproves the sex binary. You've linked to an opinion article making an extraordinary claim and seem to think it requires no further examination.

 

[AuroraSaab]

What field? I don’t think it is sociology or human interaction. In everyday life I neither know nor care exactly how your chromosomes are arranged, and I try not to obsess about most people’s genitals.

Biology. What does Sociology have to do with biology? It has no input into whether you can split the atom or how water molecules behave, so what influence does it have on the how the human body is constructed? Biology will just keep doing its thing even if the social sciences had never been invented or disappeared overnight. And part of that thing is binary sex in mammals.

This is the voice of privilege speaking. You neither know nor care about sex based rights (aka chromosomes and genitalia) because you don't have to. Discussing women's rights is just a theoretical exercise to you. When the people with a particular set of genitals stop oppressing the people with the other set of genitals then maybe the second of those groups can stop worrying about it.

Get back to me when men no longer commit 98% of sex crimes.

 

[Ian H]

...seem to think...

You're very good at ascribing thoughts to others without any evidence.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I'm not particularly bothered about being a 'subset' of my own sex, I can live with that if by doing so it means that transgender people are not oppressed .

We're talking about human beings, and (hopefully) how they flourish as individuals within an interdependent society.

Science doest trump everything when we're talking about how we behave towards each other and make policy and space for each other as humans .

That way lies eugenics, and the justification for other sorts of oppression.

You are not oppressed by having your sex correctly identified. In fact it's an act of oppression to insert yourself into a different sex category when historically that group have been oppressed by your group and you seek the rights that women have been given exactly because men oppress them, like single sex spaces.

If you are happy being regarded as a subset of your own sex you could simply call yourself 'cis' and not impose it on other women without their consent.

When the basis of women's oppression is their biology, not sociology, then science is rather important.

 

[mudsticks]

You are not oppressed by having your sex correctly identified. In fact it's an act of oppression to insert yourself into a different sex category when historically that group have been oppressed by your group and you seek the rights that women have been given exactly because men oppress them, like single sex spaces.

If you are happy being regarded as a subset of your own sex you could simply call yourself 'cis' and not impose it on other women without their consent.

When the basis of women's oppression is their biology, not sociology, then science is rather important.

I'd say that women's oppression is based on both biology and sociology.
In fact I'd go so far as to say it very often leans more heavily to the latter

Our oppression is done by people who have been socialised into believing it's ok / normal for men to oppress women and do various forms of violence against their bodies and minds

We really need to address that poor socialisation.

Yes of course biology comes into it, if I look like or identify as a biological woman there are some men who will believe they have an entitlement to talk to, or act towards me in certain ways.

But even if I was a transwomen, some would still do that, because they are socially conditioned to act that way towards people they see as 'woman'
So pure biology by itself makes no difference.

It's largely the attitude in some peoples minds towards women in general that needs to change.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You're very good at ascribing thoughts to others without any evidence.

I asked you for evidence that sex wasn't binary and you linked to an opinion piece. What else am I supposed to think you thought you were doing if not providing evidence? Sounds like you've realised that article is bunkum and are trying to make out that it wasn't your intention to present it as evidence. You'll be saying it was 'just meant as a talking point', or 'just opening up the discussion' or something next.

Any luck with that actual peer reviewed disprovement of the sex binary yet? Discovered another gamete? A Nobel Prize awaits.

 

[theclaud]

I don't quite get it .


If this chap finds us so fascinating 🧐
Or interesting enough, at least to chat about, why does he not just chat to us.

Or is there some kind of voyeuristic / control freakery thing going on??

Would it be just too much, If he actually had to interact, and not be able to curate / bend / reinterpret the conversation along his own particular groove.??

And there was us thinking we might be a tad cliquey ??

He would if he could. He's banned from the CC Estate. Not for anything to do with trans issues or for any identifiable offence against another member, but for Ludic Tendencies Unacceptable to the Management. They do not like anything too Meta...

 

[newfhouse]

Biology. What does Sociology have to do with biology? It has no input into whether you can split the atom or how water molecules behave, so what influence does it have on the how the human body is constructed? Biology will just keep doing its thing even if the social sciences had never been invented or disappeared overnight. And part of that thing is binary sex in mammals.

Even if you're right, so what? For the 99th time, the argument - the risk even - is from behaviour, not biology.

This is the voice of privilege speaking. You neither know nor care about sex based rights (aka chromosomes and genitalia) because you don't have to. Discussing women's rights is just a theoretical exercise to you. When the people with a particular set of genitals stop oppressing the people with the other set of genitals then maybe the second of those groups can stop worrying about it.

As a cis male I am at a lower risk of discrimination or harm than many, so yes, I acknowledge my privilege in that regard. Extending that to say that as a result I "neither know nor care" is offensive nonsense. I disagree with some of what you say but that doesn't equate to lack of care.

Would you contend that I am similarly unable or unworthy to support other oppressed people? I'm not gay so can't truly be in favour of equality? I'm not Palestinian so can't honestly find Israel's apartheid abhorrent? I'm currently financially comfortable so can't be outraged by poverty?

I hope you will reflect and then retract the relevant accusation in your post.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I'd say that women's oppression is based on both biology and sociology.
In fact I'd go so far as to say it very often leans more heavily to the latter

Our oppression is done by people who have been socialised into believing it's ok / normal for men to oppress women and do various forms of violence against their bodies and minds

We really need to address that poor socialisation.

Yes of course biology comes into it, if I look like or identify as a biological woman there are some men who will believe they have an entitlement to talk to, or act towards me in certain ways.

But even if I was a transwomen, some would still do that, because they are socially conditioned to act that way towards people they see as 'woman'
So pure biology by itself makes no difference.

It's largely the attitude in some peoples minds towards women in general that needs to change.

But the origin of the oppression that socialisation perpetuates is sex. There wouldn't be anything to perpetuate otherwise. And you don't end that oppression by getting rid of the rights set up to help the oppressed.

Men who identify as women face their own discrimination and oppression. But it is not the same as that faced by women. They face prejudice and discrimination, and assaults from other men, because they are non conforming men not because they are women.

The fact that it's even being considered that they are women, well that in itself tells you everything about male privilege. If it was women demanding access to the rights set up to protect another group these demands wouldn't have seen the light of day.

 

[Ian H]

I asked you for evidence that sex wasn't binary and you linked to an opinion piece. What else am I supposed to think you thought you were doing if not providing evidence? Sounds like you've realised that article is bunkum and are trying to make out that it wasn't your intention to present it as evidence. You'll be saying it was 'just meant as a talking point', or 'just opening up the discussion' or something next.

Any luck with that actual peer reviewed disprovement of the sex binary yet? Discovered another gamete? A Nobel Prize awaits.

Oh dear. See previous post.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Even if you're right, so what? For the 99th time, the argument - the risk even - is from behaviour, not biology.


As a cis male I am at a lower risk of discrimination or harm than many, so yes, I acknowledge my privilege in that regard. Extending that to say that as a result I "neither know nor care" is offensive nonsense. I disagree with some of what you say but that doesn't equate to lack of care.

Would you contend that I am similarly unable or unworthy to support other oppressed people? I'm not gay so can't truly be in favour of equality? I'm not Palestinian so can't honestly find Israel's apartheid abhorrent? I'm currently financially comfortable so can't be outraged by poverty?

I hope you will reflect and then retract the relevant accusation in your post.

When you say you don't care about someone's genitalia or chromosomes you are saying you don't think their sex is relevant. Women's oppression is sex based and their rights are sex based. Their sex is relevant in how they are treated. It's ludicrous to pretend otherwise.

Yes, the issue is behaviour. But in terms of how women are treated that behaviour correlates very closely to sex. Biological sex that is, not gender identity. It's not just random that men commit most sexual assaults and women are mostly the victims.

Should we not draw conclusions from this and respect women's need for spaces that exclude men, regardless of how they identify?

Your comparisons are disingenuous. Equality for gay people didn't impinge on anybody else's rights. Supporting the Palestinians or campaigning against poverty doesn't remove rights and protections from another group.

Do you think gay people and Palestinians have a right to exclusive words which describe themselves? Do gay people have the right to gay only spaces, exclusively for them? Can I identify as gay and take an award created for the gay community? Can I be a Palestinian just because I say I am one? I suspect the answer would be no. And yet my impression is that you would deny women all these things.

 

[mudsticks]

He would if he could. He's banned from the CC Estate. Not for anything to do with trans issues or for any identifiable offence against another member, but for Ludic Tendencies Unacceptable to the Management. They do not like anything too Meta...

Oh OK ..
Interesting (sort of)

Isn't he also the chap with a bunny rabbit, who likes riding his bike at night ??

Or was that some other odd cove??

So many odd coves , so little time, she opined wistfully.

Thanks for the new word btw Claude 'ludic' not come across that one before 👌🏼

 

[Rusty Nails]

An 82yr old retired scientist with wacky views on one subject (pollution) might well be unreliable in other areas.
But you said follow the science - https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/#

One of the problems is that people can choose which or whose science to follow, as scientists don't always agree.

They can, of course, choose the thorough route and examine all the science before deciding the best/most accurate science to follow, but most people will not.