Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

It will mean no therapist or psychologist can talk with kids about other issues that might have shed light on their unhappiness with their body. It cements affirmation only as the only route for mental health therapy for these children. This is a million miles away from gay conversion therapy but transactivists want it all lumped together and banned just the same.

This just more of the same cruelty. You are saying that the various neuro divergences of people are causing them the hallucination of having a gender identity - because you don't have sufficient sense of self everyone else is diseased, right? Therefore you are being 'kind' in denying them treatment. Also you are the expert.

 

[Bromptonaut]

The children referred to the Tavistock had already been assessed for autistic traits. 35% of them were assessed as on the ASD. The rate for the general population is 2%. What's more likely ... that autistic children are being born with the 'wrong' gender or that they are getting fixated on something they think explains other issues?

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Intentionally or not you seem to be conflating two issues. One is about how we treat people whose gender/presenting sex has changed ie your view on how trans women should be treated.

The other, reflected above, is about how minors presenting with gender incongruence are treated by the UK's publicly funded health service particularly at the Tavistock Clinic.

The latter, in the extent to which it took youngsters, particularly natal girls who as a group suddenly went from a relative minority to a large cohort, certainly warranted investigation. Whether treatment to delay puberty is harmful or whether alternatives to affirming a child's gender incongruence should have greater, perhaps far greater, weight are both absolutely legitimate public health concerns.

On the other hand hijacking the issue to club the wider issue of trans people with is, in my view wholly reprehensible. Unfortunately GC/TERF type people and the politicos who've latched on don't get that.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Stephen Wood was considered by other prisoners as not trans but a fake. I think the timing of Wood's declaration of a trans identity makes that plausible.

Oh dear. Dead naming someone? That's very bad form. Worse than the afternoon you spent misgendering your friend after telling us they were a they/them? Probably not.

How can there be 'fake trans' - if 'Stephen' says they are a woman, according to you they are a woman. Their gender identity is innate, Monica, and we must respect that surely? I'm afraid you must very much claim ownership of all these individuals for the transwoman community.

And if children know they are trans, as you claim, surely an adult male sex offender knows 'she' is trans? No double standards here, please.

This is you rejecting gender incongruence as a thing, attempting to reframe it as a mental health disease. This is your own cruelty that you can not recognise. Writing millions of words of self-justification for it doesn't dull my sense of who you are.

Gender and body dysphoria is a thing. It's a mental health condition. And it resolves on its own in most children by adulthood. There may be a small number of adults in whom it persists and for whom drugs, or even surgery, may be the only thing that relieves their mental distress.

There are however also many adults for whom wearing the clothes etc of the opposite sex is a fetish. But as you say there is no diagnosis for being trans - so well now we have to include all these men, and they are almost always men, in the 'transgender' group. This is what your position leads to.

If it wasn't a mental health condition no-one would ever detransition. And yet they do, especially young women. Unfortunately for some of them the physical damage has already been done.

 

[icowden]

Do you actually know how hard it is to be diagnosed with autism?
I doubt it.

I worked in Community Children's Services for 12 years, so am reasonably familiar with the process.

 

[monkers]

Oh dear. Dead naming someone? That's very bad form. Worse than the afternoon you spent misgendering your friend after telling us they were a they/them? Probably not.

How can there be 'fake trans' - if 'Stephen' says they are a woman, according to you they are a woman. Their gender identity is innate, Monica, and we must respect that surely? I'm afraid you must very much claim ownership of all these individuals for the transwoman community.

And if children know they are trans, as you claim, surely an adult male sex offender knows 'she' is trans? No double standards here, please.

Apologies. I hadn't realised that you had sympathy for Karen White experiencing genuinely held self-knowledge of her gender incongruence which manifested itself at the point of incarceration.

I just have thought of him as a farking monster, but opinions will vary.

 

[icowden]

This is you rejecting gender incongruence as a thing, attempting to reframe it as a mental health disease.

There is no reframing. Please explain why intervention is required from Clinical Psychiatrists and Psychologists in specialist mental health trusts if it is not a mental health issue.

 

[icowden]

This just more of the same cruelty. You are saying that the various neuro divergences of people are causing them the hallucination of having a gender identity - because you don't have sufficient sense of self everyone else is diseased, right? Therefore you are being 'kind' in denying them treatment. Also you are the expert.

That isn't what she is saying at all and you know it. What is being stated quite clearly is that we should really really make sure that these children actually have an issue and be very very careful before prescribing life changing medication or permitting life altering surgery. She is saying that there needs to be careful study of the reason for the huge increase in referrals for neurodivergent people because it's just possible that something else is at play. She is saying that perhaps adolescence and puberty is not the time to be making a decision that affects the rest of your life and that once you get past that point you might just change your mind. Thus we don't see large numbers of adult women getting referrals.

 

[monkers]

There is no reframing. Please explain why intervention is required from Clinical Psychiatrists and Psychologists in specialist mental health trusts if it is not a mental health issue.

Chronology dear boy.

 

[monkers]

That isn't what she is saying at all and you know it.

I don't know it. Cruelty dressed up as kindness while overlooking the possibility of other factors in plain sight.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Apologies. I hadn't realised that you had sympathy for Karen White experiencing genuinely held self-knowledge of her gender incongruence which manifested itself at the point of incarceration. I just have thought of him as a farking monster, but opinions will vary.

Her? Him? You can't even keep a straight story.

You keep saying gender is innate. You tell us that children know who they are. But now you don't accept that Karen White's gender is innate? Or that Karen White knows who they are?

An 11 year old being put on puberty blockers that will lead to infertility, loss of sexual function, and who knows what else, knows who they are? And can make an informed decision? But an adult person doesn't know? This doesn't make sense.

You want to have it both ways. You want to push the idea of trans kids as proof of gender being innate, even at the cost of damaging them physically and mentally, but you don't want to accept that when a transwoman is a sex offender that their gender is innate.

 

[AuroraSaab]

On the other hand hijacking the issue to club the wider issue of trans people with is, in my view wholly reprehensible. Unfortunately GC/TERF type people and the politicos who've latched on don't get that.

I think encouraging the medicalisation of gay and non conforming children in order to justify the idea that gender is innate so that adult men can be in women's spaces is reprehensible too.

 

[Bromptonaut]

I think encouraging the medicalisation of gay and non conforming children in order to justify the idea that gender is innate so that adult men can be in women's spaces is reprehensible too.

If that was actually happening I might sympathise...

 

[monkers]

Her? Him? You can't even keep a straight story.

You keep saying gender is innate. You tell us that children know who they are. But now you don't accept that Karen White's gender is innate? Or that Karen White knows who they are?

An 11 year old being put on puberty blockers that will lead to infertility, loss of sexual function, and who knows what else, knows who they are? And can make an informed decision? But an adult person doesn't know? This doesn't make sense.

You want to have it both ways. You want to push the idea of trans kids as proof of gender being innate, even at the cost of damaging them physically and mentally, but you don't want to accept that when a transwoman is a sex offender that their gender is innate.

No I don't. I'm telling you that gender identity is innate. Gender has its own meaning.

I'm saying that there is a real possibility that Stephen Wood does not have the gender identity that he claims. He does qualify for the protections of the EqA because he did not have the history of gender reassignment. Stephen Wood / Karen White is biologically male and male before the law. The risk assessment process failed to take account of the crimes he committed - this is not acceptable.



You might think you are being very clever trying to play this back to me, but I've never supported Stephen Wood to be in the women's prison estate. He did not have entitlement to be there. I make a different representation for trans women, especially those with a GRC.

 

[AuroraSaab]

If that was actually happening I might sympathise...

The idea of the 'trans child' is a fairly recent development. In the past there were children with body dysphoria, a very small number of whom it was considered appropriate to treat with puberty blockers. They weren't 'trans children' anymore than there are 'anorexic children'. They were children in mental distress. It's the idea that gender is innate that has led to the idea that these children need drugs and even surgery in order to be their 'authentic' selves. The gender is innate idea is promoted by adults.

Who does this benefit? Who benefits from telling kids that their body is the 'wrong body' for how they feel? And can be changed in order to match what they think they feel in their heads? Only adults, many of whom don't have dysphoria and for whom the 'trans child' narrative can be used to shore up the idea that they too are in the wrong body and are 'really women' with the right to access all women's stuff.

I don't think any child is in the wrong body. I don't think a single one of them needs drugs or surgery.

 

[Bromptonaut]

@AuroraSaab have you read the decision of the High Court (Chamberlain J) in the case about wait times for GID clinics?

It gives a reasonable and factual history of a few youngsters who present as gender incongruent.

Worth looking it up.