Gender again. Sorry!
- Thread starter theclaud
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multitool
Pharaoh
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that those who see the world in black and white absolutes extend this view to the notion of free speech. It is extraordinarily facile to not realise that the concepts of free speech are fluid, contextual, and complex.
It is also worth pointing out that opposing a particular viewpoint does not constitute removing free speech, and that those who claim to be "cancelled", are often to be found complaining vociferously about their 'cancellation' on media channels denied to their opponents. The transgender war is a good example of this as this week is the first time I've seen a transgender person be allowed to represent themselves on a mainstream TV news channel.
It is curious how all the so-called 'free speech campaigners' always seem to come from the right-wing, often the further reaches of it, and who, if the truth be told, want the right to say nasty, divisive things about marginalised groups without opposition.
It is also worth pointing out that opposing a particular viewpoint does not constitute removing free speech, and that those who claim to be "cancelled", are often to be found complaining vociferously about their 'cancellation' on media channels denied to their opponents. The transgender war is a good example of this as this week is the first time I've seen a transgender person be allowed to represent themselves on a mainstream TV news channel.
It is curious how all the so-called 'free speech campaigners' always seem to come from the right-wing, often the further reaches of it, and who, if the truth be told, want the right to say nasty, divisive things about marginalised groups without opposition.
multitool
Pharaoh
I can only guess to whom this alludes. 😉
C R
Über Member
bobzmyunkle
Senior Member
You do talk nonsense sometimes.
AuroraSaab
Squire
Noone has said there isn't free speech on this issue. But it's certainly the case that people who hold fairly mainstream views on the binary nature of sex and on women's rights face calls to be boycotted, sacked, not published, or investigated by their employer or regulatory body.
It's perfectly possible to be cancelled in one area but able to continue to work in another. Professor Kathleen Stock was forced out of her university post but can still write and work. Or does it only count as being cancelled if you are completely ruined in terms of your career and finances?
If this week is the first time you've seen a trans person on tv then you obviously haven't been paying attention.
For the umpteenth time, this is not a right/left issue. Most UK gender critical women are left leaning. I gave you a list previously. Continually smearing gender critical views as right wing is just another way of trying to suppress the debate.
What's not at all surprising is the way that left wing men have jumped on this issue. It allows them to parade their misogyny whilst professing to be progressive. There's nothing left wing about imagining you can opt into an oppressed class of people or that 'woman' is simply a role that anyone can play. Only one of these circles is a genuinely left wing position:
multitool
Pharaoh
The consequences of the war on trans people:
https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjkqn7/trans-people-leaving-england
https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjkqn7/trans-people-leaving-england
icowden
Legendary Member
And people often cite JK Rowling and contrast her views with Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson and Rupert Grint. JK Rowling is 57, worth 800 million and owns one of the most successful franchises of all time. She isn't worried about never being able to work again, about being cancelled. She can afford lawyers and uses them. She is pretty much "uncancellable".
On the other hand whilst Radcliffe, Watson and Grint are now in their 30s and have made a good amount of cash, they are hardly about to kill their burgeoning careers by getting themselves "cancelled". How many film roles would come their way if they were "cancelled"?
newfhouse
pleb
What evidence do you have that they are suppressing their actual beliefs in pursuit of money?
multitool
Pharaoh
None. But if he believes it hard enough it becomes true.
I mean, here he was yesterday thinking up a brand new condition called "gender dysmorphia".
Clearly, somebody who really knows what he's talking about.🤭
I mean, here he was yesterday thinking up a brand new condition called "gender dysmorphia".
Clearly, somebody who really knows what he's talking about.🤭
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AuroraSaab
Squire
It's a good job women don't leave the country every time they were scared whilst out in public. Once again though the issue is the perceived threat of male violence. It's men who do scary stuff. It's one of the reasons why we don't want them in our single sex spaces, however they identify.
Also, 'hate crimes reported' can be anything from assault to misgendering someone on Facebook. Huge difference between reported hate crimes and ones that resulted in prosecution. In fact it looks like very few hate crimes against transgender people ended up in court in the most recent stats I could find:
Worth noting that sex isn't covered under hate crime reporting as a characteristic, only those in the chart count.
So trans people actually have more protection in law than women do.
mudsticks
Squire
How Greta, the climate activist, who wants people to listen to the science on climate, feels about the issue of transgenderism doesn't affect how I feel about her climate activism one iota.
Her views on anything else really don't figure to me personally , it's not relevant.
Climate science is about what is happening to our ecosystems as a result of our digging up and burning fossil fuels, the science is clear and agreed the statistics are there.
Taking the necessary action on that issue has been largely obfuscated and delayed by vested interest..With the complicity of course of societies unwilling to see too many changes or challenges to their, lifestyles'.
The trans issue is completely different as it's where science meets humans, meets human culture, human beliefs, and human society as a whole.
Not all that different in many ways to ' 'religious belief' - which of course isn't based on 'science' at all..
It's entirely about feelings, prophets, stories we tell ourselves, faith etc.
I'm not religious, but many other people are.
I'm not going to tell them to stop being religious.
But I certainly think that religions should stop oppressing others who don't wish to live under systems based on religiosity..
See Iran, Afghanistan, Christian fundamentalism etc etc.
Ive said already (many times if you read my posts) that I think there are certain circumstances where self IDing transwomen inserting themselves into the spaces that should be reserved for women should be very strongly regulated, or in some cases prevented.
Such as refuges, women's prisons or other places where women are vulnerable.
No I don't think it's right that civilised discussion be shut down on this.
You assert that transitioning is 'unloving' I don't agree with that.
For some people it's a genuine act of self love, aligning themselves with who they believe they are.
I'm prepared to accept that body disphoria is very real and true for those who experience it, even though I find it hard to imagine for myself
I really don't think that in the case of transwomen, that it's just about wanting to wear dresses, appear feminine in their presentation, adopt feminine mannerisms or adopt a 'feminine' lifestyle, or trad female occupations (whatever they are)
I'm very 'non trad' female in many ways.
But I've never once felt that I was in the 'wrong' sexed body, despite the fact that operating as a 'non trad' woman in a patriachal society isn't always very comfortable.
So I'm happy to accept the lived truth of transpeople who really do feel 'wrong bodied' in their original gender, and then find personal resolution in transition.
How we accommodate those people into a society, without impinging the rights and safety of others, is tricky, but I'm sure we could come up with more, and better solutions if we tried a bit harder.
We usually can resolve most things somehow if we do act from a place of loving kindness, understanding, awareness, and even some compromises. .
newfhouse
pleb
If someone made that argument about rape you would quite rightly say that the ratio between reported and prosecuted crime is scandalous. How does it bolster your point here?
multitool
Pharaoh
Did you bother to follow any of the discussions in the Scottish Parliament to see if any indifference to possible harm to women appeared?
No? After all, you had six years to look, because the debate took six years.
The ratio of women MSPs voting in favour of the GR Bill to those against, was 3:1. And, of course, the leader of the government proposing the Bill was, herself, a woman. You'd think they'd have a vested interest wouldn't you, the wee dafties.
Could it possibly be that far from there being indifference to possible harms to women, these MSPs spent a considerable portion of the six years considering it, in minute detail and with the benefit of counter-arguments to consider, and concluded that the 'possible harms' from the Bill were not, in fact, realistic harms. After all, they had the experience of 30+ other countries, some with a decade of self ID with which to inform them.
AuroraSaab
Squire
You would have a point if 'threatening to rape' someone was included in the sexual offences statistics. Rape is a very specific offence in UK law; hate crime isn't. Thus, assaulting a trans person would be a hate crime, but offending them on social media could be recorded as one as well.
And if you have a non crime hate incident reported against you, that can be recorded by the police and they don't even have to tell you. If you are then required to have an enhanced CRB check it can be disclosed to your prospective employer.
I don't disagree that the number of many crimes are under reported, including crimes against trans people. But equating a nebulous category that covers things that aren't actually against the law with specific crimes that very much are is a bit disingenuous.
