Gender again. Sorry!

[theclaud]

Barbie movie does look awesome though.

I'll give it a go, if I can get past the pinkness for long enough...

 

[monkers]

Sounds like a plot for a second-rate horror film.

On par with Conservative Party policy for LGBT people.

 

[AuroraSaab]

But seriously, you acknowledged that women do better than men in endurance events, so how can there be objection to trans women competing in endurance events with other women?

Because it is still an unfair advantage even if it doesn't result in a win. Should doped cyclists be allowed in races as long as they have no chance of winning?

I think people might notice that has been your hitherto means of evidence, that trans women have an unfair advantage by results.

The results just illustrate the advantage and make it more obvious. Lia Thomas going from 500th to 1st nationally is far more obvious than a transwoman in a minor cycle race or high school sports. It remains an unfair advantage though, whatever the result whatever the level.

I find this whole 'It doesn't matter if they don't win' attitude pretty dismissive of the importance which many girls and women place on their sports, whether amateur or professional.

 

[Pale Rider]

On par with Conservative Party policy for LGBT people.

Giving opposite gender hormones to a child also sounds like something Dr Mengele would have tried in Auschwitz.

Rather than trying to politically point score, you need to take a step back and consider exactly what you are advocating.

 

[monkers]

Because it is still an unfair advantage even if it doesn't result in a win. Should doped cyclists be allowed in races as long as they have no chance of winning?

When people dope with performance enhancing drugs it is in order to increase performance - this is INTENT to cheat.

When people take medications with performance reducing drugs it is not to increase performance - this is INTENT to live an authentic life.

The difference could hardly be clearer.

Hands up gentleman, how many of you would trade your genitals for competition in women's sport?

 

[Deleted member 121]

Because it is still an unfair advantage even if it doesn't result in a win. Should doped cyclists be allowed in races as long as they have no chance of winning?


The results just illustrate the advantage and make it more obvious. Lia Thomas going from 500th to 1st nationally is far more obvious than a transwoman in a minor cycle race or high school sports. It remains an unfair advantage though, whatever the result whatever the level.

I find this whole 'It doesn't matter if they don't win' attitude pretty dismissive of the importance which many girls and women place on their sports, whether amateur or professional.

Two people better qualified than me share opinion on the matter....

Brooke Forde an Olympic silver medalist, said of Thomas that: "I believe that treating people with respect and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be, which is why I will not have a problem racing against Lia at NCAAs this year"

Another swimmer, Olympic silver medalist Erica Sullivan, spoke in support of Thomas in an opinion piece for Newsweek: "like anyone else in this sport, Lia has trained diligently to get to where she is and has followed all of the rules and guidelines put before her ... she doesn't win every time. And when she does, she deserves, like anyone else in this sport, to be celebrated for her hard-won success, not labeled a cheater simply because of her identity."

I'm sure you disagree but there are two women there who actually compete(d) against Lia in the sport.

 

[monkers]

Giving opposite gender hormones to a child also sounds like something Dr Mengele would have tried in Auschwitz.

Rather than trying to politically point score, you need to take a step back and consider exactly what you are advocating.

Maybe you need to be sure that I'm advocating anything at all before you make Nazi insinuations? Doesn't it sound very 'woke' to you to be doing that?

 

[Pale Rider]

I think the solution is to mandate that all gilrs are given male hormones before puberty.

 

[multitool]

Yes there is a sportive , but also a much more serious event for ex professionals, who have won UCi world events.

The trans was not competing in the sportive.

So who is the bullshitter now

"ex-professionals"

I ride with an ex-professional, Andy. You are out of your depth here, son.

"much more serious event".

Nope. As far as i can tell it's the same event, or series of same events, and it's still to all intents a sportive. Anyone can enter. AFAIK no affiliation to anything.

But then, like you, I'd not heard of it until today.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Giving opposite gender hormones to a child also sounds like something Dr Mengele would have tried in Auschwitz.

Has that, outside of what I guess was @monkers irony, actually happened?

I don't mean the stuff that delays puberty I mean giving testosterone to girls or female hormones to boys?

The case about this and the point at which a young person was competent to consent to puberty blockers was at the centre of Bell v Tavistock:

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Bell-v-Tavistock-judgment-170921.pdf

That's what the Court of Appeal said, overturning a previous JR decision. An attempt was made to go onto the Supreme Court but permission was denied.

 

[multitool]

Wait until Pale Rider hears about teenagers on the pill

 

[monkers]

Has that, outside of what I guess was @monkers irony, actually happened?

It was blatant piss-taking in reply to a troll (not PR). Stick being grasped at wrong end by a journalist of all people is just a bit too funny.

 

[Unkraut]

Giving opposite gender hormones to a child also sounds like something Dr Mengele would have tried in Auschwitz.

Rather than trying to politically point score, you need to take a step back and consider exactly what you are advocating.

I think giving drugs and doing surgery for transgender teenagers is indeed evil, but it is over the top to invoke Mengele.

The second paragraph is spot on.

One writer I translated for occasionsly was born in the Communist East, showed promise as a gymnast, was given drugs whilst young to enhance performance. (Got to show socialism is superior to capitalism.)

Fast forward nearly 40 odd years and she ends up being written off sick for over a year as the long-term effects of the drugs become manifest. Massive medical intervention to try to undo the damage, with no certainty she will ever return to a normal life.

The parallel to administering puberty blockers is to me obvious. Especially as the problem is in their head rather than their body.

You don't do a hip replacement to cure anxiety.

 

[Pale Rider]

I think giving drugs and doing surgery for transgender teenagers is indeed evil, but it is over the top to invoke Mengele.

The second paragraph is spot on.

One writer I translated for occasionsly was born in the Communist East, showed promise as a gymnast, was given drugs whilst young to enhance performance. (Got to show socialism is superior to capitalism.)

Fast forward nearly 40 odd years and she ends up being written off sick for over a year as the long-term effects of the drugs become manifest. Massive medical intervention to try to undo the damage, with no certainty she will ever return to a normal life.

The parallel to administering puberty blockers is to me obvious. Especially as the problem is in their head rather than their body.

You don't do a hip replacement to cure anxiety.

Sounds spot on to me.

But we've no need to worry because it was all biting satire.

Yeah, right.

 

[monkers]

The case about this and the point at which a young person was competent to consent to puberty blockers was at the centre of Bell v Tavistock:

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Bell-v-Tavistock-judgment-170921.pdf

This is indeed an interesting case especially with the issues and questions raised in relation with Gillick competence.

We might assume that Bell had been assessed as Gillick competent. She was first seen at the age of 15, but was not prescribed cross sex hormones until 17. She was not put forward for surgery until age 20.

I'm certainly not somebody who believes everything they read on the internet, but there is a story worthy of note. Bell had been adamant that she was only attracted to girls but was not comfortable with being a lesbian - which is why her own mother had asked her if she would prefer to be a boy.

There are reports from those who knew Bell during those teenage years that she was in fact sleeping with boys, and that she had an abortion at the age of 16. If true, these would have been material facts that she should have shared with the Tavistock. One might assume she was holding back facts that she knew could have halted her treatment. For the purposes of an abortion clinic, she would need to be have assessed as Gillick competent at the time of the abortion at age 16.

These are not matters that were raised in court, or mentioned in her version of her own story.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm only qualified to view this at the level of being somebody who worked in education, and with an appropriate level of training in safeguarding.