Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

These are the kinds of knots you are either tying yourself in, or otherwise trying to tie other people in. To people with clearer heads, your version is just wrong-headed nonsense.

The only person in knots is you, because your definition of who is or isn't transgender seems fairly fluid depending on whether you hold a GRC or you are a sex offender. Either people are who they say they are and gender is innate (what you've said previously) or not. How can somebody become transgender or a woman or a man just because they have a piece of paper in their hand?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Speaking of Barbie, it is interesting how we seem to have moved from her being seen as problematic, sexist and promoting unattainable body image, to being a 'girlboss' role model. I don't know if that's just down to the marketing around the movie or whether it's indicative of a wider change in attitude.

I think Mattel have made an effort in recent years to move away from the hyper feminised Barbie tradition to career Barbies, disabled Barbies and so on. Too late to change the classic body shape though.

Can women now be stereotypically pink and girly yet taken seriously at work in a way they couldn't before? Are Barbie dolls good for girls? We resisted buying them and instead got Lottie dolls which have more sensible body proportions, less pink and really good outfits (astronaut, footballer, biologist) but our daughter went through a really pink phase where she desperately wanted a real Barbie and we weren't going to deny her, she's her own person after all and we're there to guide her, not mould her. Now she's out of her pink period but who knows how she'll develop later on?

The advertising around gendered toys is huge and toys and clothes are far more gendered in a way they weren't when I was a child. Look at Lego for example which went from unisex to gendered. It's near impossible to resist this push so I think you just have to let kids have what they want, within reason, whilst trying to ensure it actually is what they want and they aren't being pressured not to play with certain toys or wear certain clothes because of stereotypes.

I think Bratz dolls are probably worse than Barbie tbh. I'll be seeing the film as it's Greta Gerwig so should be good, if rather overhyped.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.et...stic_make_unders_to_make_them_less_sexual?amp

 

[AndyRM]

There's also the L.O.L. Surprise Dolls, which are horrifying.

 

[AuroraSaab]

God, yeah, those are horrible. Those ones that are girl babies wearing both nappies and make up. Creepy AF.

 

[monkers]

The only person in knots is you, because your definition of who is or isn't transgender seems fairly fluid depending on whether you hold a GRC or you are a sex offender. Either people are who they say they are and gender is innate (what you've said previously) or not. How can somebody become transgender or a woman or a man just because they have a piece of paper in their hand?

No it's you because every time you hear the term 'transgender' you think 'trans women'. Hence if a report says the number of arrests of transgender people in one year is 100, you assume that 100 of them are trans women.

Just about everybody else including Aunt Betty knows that the word transgender is an umbrella term that includes trans women.

All trans women are transgender. Not all transgender people are trans women. Got there yet?

 

[AuroraSaab]

This isn't what we are discussing though. We are discussing whether all men who claim to be women are transgender or not. If you are going to say gender is innate, then surely they are, and there is no genuine or fake transgender people because being 'trans' is predicated on self knowledge not biology. Thus, Stephen Wood and Isla Bryan are as genuinely transgender as someone with a GRC.

 

[monkers]

This isn't what we are discussing though. We are discussing whether all men who claim to be women are transgender or not. If you are going to say gender is innate, then surely they are, and there is no genuine or fake transgender people because being 'trans' is predicated on self knowledge not biology. Thus, Stephen Wood and Isla Bryan are as genuinely transgender as someone with a GRC.

You need to go back to what I said in my opening post.

I can't define the term 'transgender'; neither can anybody else, since its meaning is culturally different from place to place.

At one time there were some accepted terms, example, cross-dresser, transvestite, CD, TV, T-girl, transsexual, TS etc, The term transgender was often used as 'transgendered'. These days people are avoiding the terms transvestite TV, TS, transsexual.

Look on a dozen different websites and get a dozen different answers. If there is a word that needs defining it's maybe that one.

In the meantime there is no fixed identity of transgender. But because many in the LGBT community see it as an umbrella term, there are those who will say they are transgender because they cross-dress. This is a fact and it makes reading and interpreting data sets especially difficult.

 

[AuroraSaab]

In that case, why in earth should gender identity be allowed to override the material reality of sex in law if it can't even be defined and if being 'transgender' has no accurate meaning?

 

[Bromptonaut]

In that case, why in earth should gender identity be allowed to override the material reality of sex in law if it can't even be defined and if being 'transgender' has no accurate meaning?

Jeez, we've explained this several times over.

The 'in law' bit refers to the Gender Recognition Act 2004. If one can jump through the required medico-legal and practical hoops then you can have a birth certificate in your acquired gender. The UK was dragged kicking and screaming to pass that legislation because being unable to marry was a breach of people's Human Rights.

 

[winjim]

There's also the L.O.L. Surprise Dolls, which are horrifying.

God, yeah, those are horrible. Those ones that are girl babies wearing both nappies and make up. Creepy AF.

Oh, she loves those. And she asked me to buy her the Num Noms magazine with all the pink plastic tat on it the other day. Sometimes she reverts to that childish pink rubbish as a bit of a safety net I think.

 

[classic33]

I think Mattel have made an effort in recent years to move away from the hyper feminised Barbie tradition to career Barbies, disabled Barbies and so on. Too late to change the classic body shape though.

The advertising around gendered toys is huge and toys and clothes are far more gendered in a way they weren't when I was a child. Look at Lego for example which went from unisex to gendered. It's near impossible to resist this push so I think you just have to let kids have what they want, within reason, whilst trying to ensure it actually is what they want and they aren't being pressured not to play with certain toys or wear certain clothes because of stereotypes.

I think Bratz dolls are probably worse than Barbie tbh. I'll be seeing the film as it's Greta Gerwig so should be good, if rather overhyped.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.et...stic_make_unders_to_make_them_less_sexual?amp

Barbie isn't the best example, her boyfriend/partner/husband is her brother. And the pair of them are murderers.

 

[Pale Rider]

God, yeah, those are horrible. Those ones that are girl babies wearing both nappies and make up. Creepy AF.

On a linked note, there was a craze a few years ago for people to don clown mask/costumes in a usually successful attempt to startle passers-by.

I was surprised - and pleased - to see the law treated these 'pranksters' with appropriate seriousness, sending many of them to prison.

Which may have been why the craze fizzled out fairly quickly.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Barbie isn't the best example, her boyfriend/partner/husband is her brother. And the pair of them are murderers.

Then there's the joke about Barbie comes with Ken, to which the child says No, she fakes it with Ken but comes with GI Joe.

 

[Milzy]

Barbie isn't the best example, her boyfriend/partner/husband is her brother. And the pair of them are

Then there's the joke about Barbie comes with Ken, to which the child says No, she fakes it with Ken but comes with GI Joe.

It did cross my mind but I thought I won’t post as it’s Roy Chubby brown stuff and in 2023 a child talking about sex in that way is just wrong.

 

[Pale Rider]

Then there's the joke about Barbie comes with Ken, to which the child says No, she fakes it with Ken but comes with GI Joe.

It seems the clothed civil servant does have sense of humour after all.

Can you imagine the bellowing if I'd posted that?

Although it would be funnier than the joke.

By the way, does Action Man have any part in this discussion?

I seem to recall there were some stories about him being too masculine, and others speculating he might be homosexual.