Gender again. Sorry!

[icowden]

Given Aurora's well-documented history of lying, my statement that every one of her posts needs to be "parsed for lies'" remains true.

No it doesn't. And you remain strangely trumpian in your inability to hold your hands up and say "I was wrong".

In my post about the Webberleys I said she was mistaken. I didn't say she was lying. I immediately acknowledged that I was mistaken.

You didn't say she was mistaken. You made your statement about parsing for lies and trumpeted your own made up version of the truth before you realised that you had cocked up and made yourself look daft. You then tried to row back without bothering to apologise. Your only admittance was on behalf of yourself.

You made no acknowledgement that once again you groundlessly accused Aurora of being a liar, and also called her a "twunt". Why is it that you are allowed to make mistakes, or post something that is incorrect and then find that to be a mistake, but if Aurora does it she is automatically a liar?

A strangely misogynistic and Trumpian approach.

 

[multitool]

No it doesn't. And you remain strangely trumpian in your inability to hold your hands up and say "I was wrong".

You didn't say she was mistaken. You made your statement about parsing for lies and trumpeted your own made up version of the truth before you realised that you had cocked up and made yourself look daft. You then tried to row back without bothering to apologise. Your only admittance was on behalf of yourself.

You made no acknowledgement that once again you groundlessly accused Aurora of being a liar, and also called her a "twunt". Why is it that you are allowed to make mistakes, or post something that is incorrect and then find that to be a mistake, but if Aurora does it she is automatically a liar?

A strangely misogynistic and Trumpian approach.

I think you need to go back and have a re-read, I very clearly accepted I was mistaken about the Webberleys. That Aurora is a known liar remains true. That readers need to parse her every word for lies remains true. This is not the same as saying everything she posts is a lie.

And yes, regardless of the fact I was factually incorrect in this case, Aurora is still a twunt.

 

[Hitchington]

Giving any medicine to little Jonny just because he says he wants to be known as little Janet strikes me as a grievous misuse of the medicine.

Which doesn't make me anti-trans, it makes me anti-child abuse, which this is.

Have you ever taken time to think about the experience of a person who feels they have been born into the wrong body, or the wrong biological sex? Or the stress, the depression that results from an unhappy life trying to conform to this society's binary expectations of gender?

What if a young person was supported and given the opportunity to make that change to be the person they feel they should be? Is this really "child abuse?" Or is it child centred support? Far better to support someone to safely transition before puberty than them having to wait until adulthood, but of course those wishing to transition when adults should be equally supported to do this safely.

There's a lot of nonsense thrown about by the anti-trans/homophobic community, some of it daft, a lot of it dangerous.

People who transition or identify as something different to the cis gender "norms" don't have a mental illness. They are not confused. In fact they have the courage to decide what makes them feel comfortable, true to themselves and ultimately lead a happy and fulfilling life.

Those who support them, family, friends, doctors/medical professionals, activists and allies are not child abusers, groomers or anything but people who recognise that we only have one life and the way to a happy life is to allow people to be themselves. Something the anti- trans community don't recognise which makes them a pretty miserable bunch, in my experience.

I can't think why anyone wouldn't wish someone else to be happy and true to themselves.

 

[Pale Rider]

Have you ever taken time to think about the experience of a person who feels they have been born into the wrong body, or the wrong biological sex? Or the stress, the depression that results from an unhappy life trying to conform to this society's binary expectations of gender?

What if a young person was supported and given the opportunity to make that change to be the person they feel they should be? Is this really "child abuse?" Or is it child centred support? Far better to support someone to safely transition before puberty than them having to wait until adulthood, but of course those wishing to transition when adults should be equally supported to do this safely.

There's a lot of nonsense thrown about by the anti-trans/homophobic community, some of it daft, a lot of it dangerous.

People who transition or identify as something different to the cis gender "norms" don't have a mental illness. They are not confused. In fact they have the courage to decide what makes them feel comfortable, true to themselves and ultimately lead a happy and fulfilling life.

Those who support them, family, friends, doctors/medical professionals, activists and allies are not child abusers, groomers or anything but people who recognise that we only have one life and the way to a happy life is to allow people to be themselves. Something the anti- trans community don't recognise which makes them a pretty miserable bunch, in my experience.

I can't think why anyone wouldn't wish someone else to be happy and true to themselves.

It's the manipulation of children I object to.

I'm sure most of us, apart from Peter Tatchell, approve of an age of consent.

If when little Jonny becomes big Jonny he still wants to be called Janet, fair enough.

Too late for puberty blockers, obviously, but that's no bad thing.

When I was a child, I was told little boys should be seen and not heard - relating to behaviour when others were present.

That's tantamount to child cruelty now, but as a starting point it has a lot going for it.

 

[newfhouse]

When I was a child, I was told little boys should be seen and not heard - relating to behaviour when others were present.

That's tantamount to child cruelty now, but as a starting point it has a lot going for it.

It made you what you are now, no doubt.

 

[Hitchington]

It's the manipulation of children I object to.

I'm sure most of us, apart from Peter Tatchell, approve of an age of consent.

If when little Jonny becomes big Jonny he still wants to be called Janet, fair enough.

Too late for puberty blockers, obviously, but that's no bad thing.

When I was a child, I was told little boys should be seen and not heard - relating to behaviour when others were present.

That's tantamount to child cruelty now, but as a starting point it has a lot going for it.

Your reply is riddled with far right culture war troupes. Children are not being "manipulated." Supporting children and young people to transition has been going on for decades without you or any of us noticing. It has allowed people to grow up and become their true selves.

Society has begun to realise that gender is a social construct and their is much more variety than "little Johnny and Janet." Maybe, as predicted by Iain M Banks in the Culture universe, gender will become much more fluid and we will be able to change our gender much more freely.

You need to stop thinking about it as "abuse" because this is entirely incorrect.

 

[Pale Rider]

It made you what you are now, no doubt.

Oh yeah, it had a huge impact on me being occasionally told to behave more like a grown up.

Your reply is riddled with far right culture war troupes. Children are not being "manipulated." Supporting children and young people to transition has been going on for decades without you or any of us noticing. It has allowed people to grow up and become their true selves.

Society has begun to realise that gender is a social construct and their is much more variety than "little Johnny and Janet." Maybe, as predicted by Iain M Banks in the Culture universe, gender will become much more fluid and we will be able to change our gender much more freely.

You need to stop thinking about it as "abuse" because this is entirely incorrect.

Allowing a child to take such a life altering decision and supporting that with medication is in my terms inadequate parenting, bordering on the facilitating of abuse.

You seem to think children should be allowed to make such decisions, fair enough, but it's not something we will ever agree on.

The only reason I mention 'seen and not heard' is giving children the power over their preferred gender is the logical conclusion of not imposing appropriate discipline.

Sometimes it is right to simply say 'no'.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Why does becoming your authentic self require a lifetime of medication, some with serious consequences, and often surgery? Wouldn't it be better to encourage people to accept themselves as they are? Does none of the data about the cohort at the Tavistock give you cause for concern?

Body dysphoria resolves in most children and young people if they are given therapy and/or time.

Have you ever taken time to think about the experience of a person who feels they have been born into the wrong body, or the wrong biological sex?

Nobody is born in the wrong body. It is impossible to feel you are the opposite sex; we have no idea how it feels to be anything other than the sex we are.

Or the stress, the depression that results from an unhappy life trying to conform to this society's binary expectations of gender?

Then the answer is to do away with gender expectations altogether, not tell kids they might be the opposite sex because they don't conform to stereotypes.

What if a young person was supported and given the opportunity to make that change to be the person they feel they should be? Is this really "child abuse?" Or is it child centred support?

The Cass report noted that social transition is not a neutral intervention. It could concretise a passing phase. Children on puberty blockers invariably (98% ish) go on to adult cross sex hormones. Why not support kids who are gay or gender non conforming to continue to be so, just as they are, rather than selling them the fantasy that they can change sex?

 

[icowden]

Your reply is riddled with far right culture war troupes. Children are not being "manipulated." Supporting children and young people to transition has been going on for decades without you or any of us noticing. It has allowed people to grow up and become their true selves.

Not really decades. Modern surgical intervention has been around at best for about 20 years. There are a very few cases before that but phallastoplasty and matoidoplasty just weren't available as a mainstream treatment until just after 2000.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Allowing a child to take such a life altering decision and supporting that with medication is in my terms inadequate parenting, bordering on the facilitating of abuse.

How about reading up on the subject. Here's a starter for you:

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content...RS-v-NHS-Commission-Board-Judgment-160123.pdf

The facts in para 35 on....

 

[CXRAndy]

Far better to support someone to safely transition before puberty than them having to wait until adulthood,

What, children do not know or can comprehend the ramifications of such non reversible treatments.

Far far better to give them psychological treatment, and has already been reported often grow out of these feelings into adulthood

 

[CXRAndy]

Society has begun to realise that gender is a social construct

No it hasn't, it's a tiny vocal cult.

 

[Pale Rider]

Here's a starter for you:

Don't be so bloody stupid.

More than 40 pages of a legal judgment is not a starter for anything.

My position is simple, children should be told to wait until they are older before taking any irreversible decisions on gender.

What do you say this case has to say about that?

Seems to me 'nothing' is the obvious answer.

 

[classic33]

Why does becoming your authentic self require a lifetime of medication, some with serious consequences, and often surgery? Wouldn't it be better to encourage people to accept themselves as they are? Does none of the data about the cohort at the Tavistock give you cause for concern?

View attachment 4471

Body dysphoria resolves in most children and young people if they are given therapy and/or time.

Nobody is born in the wrong body. It is impossible to feel you are the opposite sex; we have no idea how it feels to be anything other than the sex we are.

Then the answer is to do away with gender expectations altogether, not tell kids they might be the opposite sex because they don't conform to stereotypes.

The Cass report noted that social transition is not a neutral intervention. It could concretise a passing phase. Children on puberty blockers invariably (98% ish) go on to adult cross sex hormones. Why not support kids who are gay or gender non conforming to continue to be so, just as they are, rather than selling them the fantasy that they can change sex?

How do you propose kids, or anyone, who feel their body is the wrong shape and isn't theirs, be dealt with?
Who's normal are they trying to fit into. And why?

Surgery is routinely carried out on people who feel that there body is the wrong for them. Be it parts not the correct shape/size, or weight. You offer most a quick way of "fixing the issue" via surgery, or just talking about how they should just accept that their body is how it's meant to be. How many do you think would actually just want to talk about it?
They get older, they may well travel abroad to a country where they can have the surgery. Often because there's fewer questions asked and very little, if any, waiting time.

Tell that to someone who's being bullied at school because they don't feel that their body is right for them.

 

[multitool]

No it hasn't, it's a tiny vocal cult.

If gender isn't a construct then either it doesn't exist or it is innate.

Which is it?