Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

Why would those statistics be any different?

Your argument is basically 'You haven't included the things that might or might not have happened'.

Given you conflated two different people into one imaginary transwoman from an easy to read Daily Mail article, and can only find a single question on a single survey that had 51% of women in favour of men using women's toilets, it's unsurprising that you think things that haven't been recorded should form part of your argument on data as opposed to things that have.

Any clear answer on why certain groups of men should be treated differently from all other men? Should men in wheelchairs be allowed to use women's changing rooms? Or gay men?

 

[Ian H]

By telling 'butch, masc or androgynous' girls they are really boys? And telling gay and non conforming boys they are really girls?

There have always been men and women who don't conform to stereotypes of dress and appearance. It's only recently some people have decided this means these folk are the opposite sex and that drugs and surgery are required.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gen...ients.-,History,performed in the 20th century.

 

[multitool]

Why would those statistics be any different?

Your argument is basically 'You haven't included the things that might or might not have happened'.

You don't seem to understand that mot all convictions result in a custodial sentence.

Add it to the list of things, I guess, along with 49 being higher than 50.

 

[classic33]

By telling 'butch, masc or androgynous' girls they are really boys? And telling gay and non conforming boys they are really girls?

There have always been men and women who don't conform to stereotypes of dress and appearance. It's only recently some people have decided this means these folk are the opposite sex and that drugs and surgery are required.

Define "recent" please?
A quick search gives Lili Elbe as the first known person to undergo gender reassignment surgery in 1930. In 1930's Germany. Other sources say it was Dora Richter in 1922, again in Germany.

First trans man, UK, is given as Laurence Michael Dillon, with surgery starting in 1945. A total of 13 operations over 4 years.

 

[AuroraSaab]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-affirming_surgery#:~:text=to male patients.-,History,performed in the 20th century.

Yes, we all know that historically there have been people - almost exclusively men - who have chosen to undergo surgery to remove their genitals. There have been nothing like the numbers we are now seeing though. The transgender surgery market in the US is worth $2 billion a year with an estimated 11% growth per annum for the next decade.

https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/us-sex-reassignment-surgery-market#

The reason the Dutch - who basically kicked off the whole gender clinic thing - reviewed giving puberty blockers to children is that their cohort changed from predominantly being men in their 40's and 50's to younger people, children, and specifically teenage girls.

 

[theclaud]

By telling 'butch, masc or androgynous' girls they are really boys? And telling gay and non conforming boys they are really girls?

I've never done that, so go argue with someone who has. You advocate gender-policing of public toilets, and (not for the first time in this thread) downplay or brush aside how women's gender expression or conformity is relentlessly policed by other women.

 

[Ian H]

Yes, we all know that historically there have been people - almost exclusively men - who have chosen to undergo surgery to remove their genitals. There have been nothing like the numbers we are now seeing though. The transgender surgery market in the US is worth $2 billion a year with an estimated 11% growth per annum for the next decade.

https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/us-sex-reassignment-surgery-market#

The reason the Dutch - who basically kicked off the whole gender clinic thing - reviewed giving puberty blockers to children is that their cohort changed from predominantly being men in their 40's and 50's to younger people, children, and specifically teenage girls.

The Wiki article mentions several female to male transitions. The simplest explanation for the increase in surgery is that surgical techniques have greatly improved, outcomes are better and risk of adverse effects much lower. There's no evidence that, in the past, fewer people would have wanted to change had it been achievable.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You don't seem to understand that mot all convictions result in a custodial sentence.

Why does whether it resulted in a jail sentence affect the relevance of the ratio of convictions for cases that did? The stats are clear. Pretending that there might have been other crimes that didn't make it to court and should be taken into account is nonsense. There's no evidence that transwomen comit these unrecorded crimes at any different ratio than the ones they are recorded and convicted for.

This is just gymnastics to avoid recognising that transwomen are the same as other men.

Add it to the list of things, I guess, along with 49 being higher than 50.

Faced with an avalanche of evidence and stats about crime data, and sports science, and women's views, government reviews, and health orgs changing their minds, the absolute best you have is still your 1% difference on a single question on a single survey.

 

[multitool]

Why does whether it resulted in a jail sentence affect the relevance of the ratio of convictions for cases that did?

Ill leave you to have a little think about that and work it out for yourself. For a start, you can no longer make any claims about 'offending rates' and can only refer to incarceration. I know accuracy doesnt matter to you, because you like to make huge assumptions on which to base dodgy conclusions.

Faced with an avalanche of evidence and stats about crime data, and sports science, and women's views, government reviews, and health orgs changing their minds, the absolute best you have is still your 1% difference on a single question on a single survey.

Nope. It's just the thing that makes me laugh the most. Watching you pretending to speak for all women, then being shown that you very comprehensively don't, and then the incessant historical revisionism from you to try and swerve the narrative.

However hard you try, 49 will never be higher than 50. And it wasn't 1%, because 51% in favour of something does not mean that 49% are against.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The Wiki article mentions several female to male transitions. The simplest explanation for the increase in surgery is that surgical techniques have greatly improved, outcomes are better and risk of adverse effects much lower. There's no evidence that, in the past, fewer people would have wanted to change had it been achievable.

Where are all the middle aged women coming out as transgender now it's socially acceptable and queuing up for the double mastectomies? Why are the main patients of the female to male surgeries teenage girls and young women? Funny how so many of those referred to clinics like the Tavistock are on the autistic spectrum and same sex attracted too. Obviously doesn't bother you one bit that the number of surgeries has doubled in some countries and the age has gone down. I can't think of any other medical issue where that wouldn't be a cause for concern.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I've never done that, so go argue with someone who has. You advocate gender-policing of public toilets, and (not for the first time in this thread) downplay or brush aside how women's gender expression or conformity is relentlessly policed by other women.

No, I suggest we all use the toilets appropriate to our sex and then women won't have to worry about who is in the changing room with them.

Once again though, you seem to think women being horrible to other women means we should give men access to women's spaces. Just because some women had their genitals checked at the 1936 Olympics or whatever doesn't mean excluding men from women's sports is 'policing women's bodies'. Just because some non conforming women are very occasionally confronted in women's toilets doesn't mean men should have access.

Does your view on 'policing' access to toilets apply to women's rape support groups, women's domestic violence refuges, lesbian groups?

It's really not about toilets, as you well know.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Ill leave you to have a little think about that and work it out for yourself. For a start, you can no longer make any claims about 'offending rates' and can only refer to incarceration. I know accuracy doesnt matter to you, because you like to make huge assumptions on which to base dodgy conclusions.

Nobody can draw any conclusions from things that might have happened but nobody knew about, including you. We can look at the stats for things that actually did happen though. Guess what? Same offending rate as other men. Why wouldn't it be?

Nope. It's just the thing that makes me laugh the most. Watching you pretending to speak for all women, then being shown that you very comprehensively .....

51% on one question, only about toilets, on one survey .... hardly very comprehensive. Especially when other surveys paint a very different picture.

The 51.89% win for the Leave vote must be considered a comprehensive slam dunk by your logic then.

 

[newfhouse]

Where are all the middle aged women coming out as transgender now it's socially acceptable and queuing up for the double mastectomies?

It is at least plausible that natal males and females have differing propensities to gender/sex mismatch and that other factors come into play as life progresses.

 

[multitool]

Nobody can draw any conclusions from things that might have happened but nobody knew about, including you. We can look at the stats for things that actually did happen though. Guess what? Same offending rate as other men. Why wouldn't it be?

You still haven't understood. You don't have the data to talk about offending rates. You only have some crude data around incarceration.

51% on one question, only about toilets, on one survey .... hardly very comprehensive. Especially when other surveys paint a very different picture.

The 51.89% win for the Leave vote must be considered a comprehensive slam dunk by your logic then.

I wasn't making any claims. I was pointing out that your claims were bullshît.

It's still funny.

 

[Hitchington]

Great, let's install a team of guard babies at the entrance to all public toilets.

KGBeebies