Gender again. Sorry!

[Bromptonaut]

Major elective cosmetic surgery isn't allowed on under 18's in the UK as you know. Plenty of examples from the USA.

Please will you drop this 'as you know' type assertion. You've no idea what I do or do not know. It makes you look snide and snarkey; not a good effect.

Surely anyone undergoing any elective cosmetic surgery as drastic as breast removal or castration should have a high standard of psychiatric care beforehand though, whether they are 18 or 50. They don't get that under the affirmation model.

I specifically asked about the UK. The USA is a foreign country. We only think they're like us because we share a language.

If you're right about elective cosmetic surgery and under 18s is right then @CXRAndy point falls at the first hurdle. I thought it was more nuanced than that, hence my reference to Gillick. But perhaps if you think top or bottom surgery for Trans people would be caught by a definition of cosmetic as in having one's boobs tuttied up you've swallowed your own propaganda.

 

[monkers]

They should because most of them have other issues like autism, ocd, higher number are in care, etc.

View attachment 5153

Also begs the question that if it isn't a mental health issue why does it require drugs and surgery.

What a crass argument.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I specifically asked about the UK. The USA is a foreign country. We only think they're like us because we share a language.

Andy didn't specify the UK either.

If you're right about elective cosmetic surgery and under 18s is right then @CXRAndy point falls at the first hurdle. I thought it was more nuanced than that, hence my reference to Gillick. But perhaps if you think top or bottom surgery for Trans people would be caught by a definition of cosmetic as in having one's boobs tuttied up you've swallowed your own propaganda.

It is cosmetic by definition though as it doesn't repair or resolve a medical problem or physical disease. It's removing healthy tissue.
These are quite extreme surgical procedures which people undertake to alleviate mental distress. You might be surprised to learn that feminists aren't fans of the culture and pressures that push women into having boob jobs either.

 

[AuroraSaab]

What a crass argument.

There you go. Monkers doesn't think an autistic 12 year old with a host of other psychological issues going on should have any assessment or counselling before getting their puberty blockers. Because it's not a mental health issue.

Do you guys know why they started giving puberty blockers to kids in the first place? Body dysphoric children weren't demanding them. The Dutch protocol came about because adult men who had transitioned weren't happy with their appearance. They didn't look feminine. They didn't pass. So Dutch gender clinics thought they could improve the outcome by giving puberty blockers to boys. They would have reduced height, be less broad, less masculine facial features.

20 years on they realised that the cohort being referred to gender clinics had changed from mostly adult men (who might well have thought long and hard about drugs and surgical interventions) to mostly young people, specifically teenage girls. This and the lack of evidence of long term psychological benefit, plus worry about long term physical damage of pb's, is why European medical authorities are walking back their enthusiasm.

A medical pathway that might have helped a small number of persistent dysphoric adult males was put in place as an option for every child that was referred, male or female, and presented as a magic wand for their myriad of issues.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-gender-hormones-surgery-detransitioning.html

 

[Bromptonaut]

Andy didn't specify the UK either.

It is cosmetic by definition though as it doesn't repair or resolve a medical problem or physical disease. It's removing healthy tissue.
These are quite extreme surgical procedures which people undertake to alleviate mental distress. You might be surprised to learn that feminists aren't fans of the culture and pressures that push women into having boob jobs either.

Andy is trying to bring the US into the debate. I'm not disinterested in what happens over there but, as a person living in England/UK and with an interest in legal/constitutional stuff that's where my focus is. I can vote and campaign in the UK.

As to the attitude of feminists to boob jobs no, I'm not remotely surprised. I regard myself as a feminist and very much in the same camp myself as women when it comes to cultural and social pressures that lead people to have their breasts enlarged or re-shaped for the titillation (sorry!) of males.

OTOH I'm aware of women at the opposite end of the scale where for whatever reason large breasts cause any amount of distress, pain, discomfort and seriously affect capability to do work or work related activity.

 

[monkers]

There you go. Monkers doesn't think an autistic 12 year old with a host of other psychological issues going on should have any assessment or counselling before getting their puberty blockers. Because it's not a mental health issue.

You've failed already before I even read the rest of the post.

''Psychological issues''. Not ''psychiatric'' issues. Clearly you have not the faintest idea of what you are talking about. It's embarrassing to have to keep pulling you up about all of these distortions.

If a child is seen at GIDS a psychotherapist would be capable of treating the comorbidity of both conditions simultaneously.

 

[monkers]

I know quite a few, the actual female-from-birth same-sex-attracted ones. Not one of them think men can be lesbians.

Are you sure you aren't talking about men who identify as women and also identify as lesbians? You can sleep with who you like of course, but some of this group do seem to get rather angry when told lesbians aren't interested in sleeping with them.

You know a few maybe who you are recently rubbed shoulders with campaigning - 'hive minds'. I've got many lesbian friends going back over 50 years. None of them think like you, and all of them will agree that the LGB Alliance is a crock of shoot and not because they are Stonewall fangirls.

None of us need permission to sleep with anybody. Keep your nose out of our business.

 

[AuroraSaab]

(I'm) very much in the same camp myself as women when it comes to cultural and social pressures that lead people to have their breasts enlarged or re-shaped for the titillation (sorry!) of males.

But social and cultural pressures on children aren't leading to the same thing, just a different version?

Adult women can be influenced by society's beauty standards and stereotypes of what being female should be like to the extent that they want huge breasts, but gender non forming girls aren't being influenced by the same pressures, which conversely lead them to want to remove theirs? It's illogical to suggest that this conditioning only kicks in later and that children are somehow immune from the pressure to be hyper feminine/masculine, yet adults aren't.

 

[monkers]

They should because most of them have other issues like autism, ocd, higher number are in care, etc.

View attachment 5153

Also begs the question that if it isn't a mental health issue why does it require drugs and surgery.

I had a similar discussion with Unkraut. I'll use the same analogy, though

A soldier is injured by an IED device - a very traumatic experience. Inevitably the individual will be distressed. But that does not mean that the injured leg must be amputated by a psychiatrist in a mental health unit because of that distress.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You know a few maybe who you are recently rubbed shoulders with campaigning - 'hive minds'. I've got many lesbian friends going back over 50 years. None of them think like you, and all of them will agree that the LGB Alliance is a crock of shoot and not because they are Stonewall fangirls.

None of us need permission to sleep with anybody. Keep your nose out of our business.

I haven't met any lesbians through campaigning. There are actual lesbians 'in the wild' these days you know, doing ordinary jobs and making friends.... None of them are the male born 'lesbians' who seem so keen on pretending same sex attraction isn't a thing and we're all attracted to gender.

The LGB Alliance do their thing, Stonewall do theirs. There are lots of groups that advocate for trans people so it's not like there aren't others batting for your cause. It's like moaning cos the NSPCC don't help pensioners.

It's as much my business as it's yours, Monica, as women have a right to be same sex attracted and not be told by trans identifying men that they are bigots if they don't consider them as partners. It's just more male entitlement really.

 

[Deleted member 159]

Andy is trying to bring the US into the debate. I'm not disinterested in what happens over there but, as a person living in England/UK and with an interest in legal/constitutional stuff that's where my focus is. I can vote and campaign in the UK.

As to the attitude of feminists to boob jobs no, I'm not remotely surprised. I regard myself as a feminist and very much in the same camp myself as women when it comes to cultural and social pressures that lead people to have their breasts enlarged or re-shaped for the titillation (sorry!) of males.

OTOH I'm aware of women at the opposite end of the scale where for whatever reason large breasts cause any amount of distress, pain, discomfort and seriously affect capability to do work or work related activity.

The USA and UK are almost walking hand in hand over trans issues. The US is probably ahead, or behind in reining back treatment/ surgery for children.

Having several children myself, I know that they only become adult in behaviour into their mid twenties. Up to that point they have child like attitudes and actions.

I see no reason to delay any form of irreversible treatment until this point. Extensive psychiatric treatment would be far more beneficial in treating those with multi facetted conditions.

I've said several times, once an adult and they want to go down this path, then being an adult go for it.

 

[classic33]

Also begs the question that if it isn't a mental health issue why does it require drugs and surgery.

I'm living with a condition that requires lifelong medication, and surgery, of various types, have been suggested.
It's not a mental health issue either.
I don't think you actually have any idea what you're trying to say. I've this feeling that you think you know.


MGG

 

[classic33]

But social and cultural pressures on children aren't leading to the same thing, just a different version?

Adult women can be influenced by society's beauty standards and stereotypes of what being female should be like to the extent that they want huge breasts, but gender non forming girls aren't being influenced by the same pressures, which conversely lead them to want to remove theirs? It's illogical to suggest that this conditioning only kicks in later and that children are somehow immune from the pressure to be hyper feminine/masculine, yet adults aren't.

What section of society is placing those standards on women though?

 

[monkers]

your cause

My cause is reinforcing the human rights for all of us. This is not your cause, or Truss's cause, not Falkner's cause, and sadly no longer the cause of the EHRC. The government's ambition is to walk away from the European Court of Human Right, and repeal the human rights act. They want to screw us all over, but asylum seekers and trans people are the two wedge issues.

The USA and UK are almost walking hand in hand over trans issues. The US is probably ahead, or behind in reining back treatment/ surgery for children.

Having several children myself, I know that they only become adult in behaviour into their mid twenties. Up to that point they have child like attitudes and actions.

I see no reason to delay any form of irreversible treatment until this point. Extensive psychiatric treatment would be far more beneficial in treating those with multi facetted conditions.

I've said several times, once an adult and they want to go down this path, then being an adult go for it.

What? They've become adults before you? They can probably straighten you out over your claims about 'psychiatric treatment'.

Funny that you make the same errors as Aurora.

 

[classic33]

There you go. Monkers doesn't think an autistic 12 year old with a host of other psychological issues going on should have any assessment or counselling before getting their puberty blockers. Because it's not a mental health issue.

Do you guys know why they started giving puberty blockers to kids in the first place? Body dysphoric children weren't demanding them. The Dutch protocol came about because adult men who had transitioned weren't happy with their appearance. They didn't look feminine. They didn't pass. So Dutch gender clinics thought they could improve the outcome by giving puberty blockers to boys. They would have reduced height, be less broad, less masculine facial features.

20 years on they realised that the cohort being referred to gender clinics had changed from mostly adult men (who might well have thought long and hard about drugs and surgical interventions) to mostly young people, specifically teenage girls. This and the lack of evidence of long term psychological benefit, plus worry about long term physical damage of pb's, is why European medical authorities are walking back their enthusiasm.

A medical pathway that might have helped a small number of persistent dysphoric adult males was put in place as an option for every child that was referred, male or female, and presented as a magic wand for their myriad of issues.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-gender-hormones-surgery-detransitioning.html

Where did she say that in response to your post?