AndyRM
Elder Goth
There's quite a few demographics covered there. Being on Team Queerio is a wonderfully broad church.
Gender again. Sorry!
- Thread starter theclaud
- Start date
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There's quite a few demographics covered there. Being on Team Queerio is a wonderfully broad church.
monkers
Legendary Member
The point that such groups are organising for themselves for inclusion while other groups of which she is a member campaign for exclusion is lost on Aurora.
Bromptonaut
Rohan Man
- Location
- Bugbrooke, Northants
I'd like to see an evidential link for irreversible surgery on minors , or those not 'Gillick Competent', in the UK. And yes I'm aware puberty blockers are not universally well regarded in terms of reversibility.
AndyRM
Elder Goth
Good luck with that request. I read an article recently about places who actively spread disinformation about procedures and drugs etc. It discussed the US in the main, but it's telling that people go on about "ideology", which is exactly the sort of language used to dismiss people's actual reality, making experiences outside a binary seem nebulous and made up: just a phase that people grow out of.
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Bromptonaut
Rohan Man
- Location
- Bugbrooke, Northants
I wish they would grow out of it...
AuroraSaab
Squire
Do you think those groups should be able to meet separately if they want to though? Or can anybody go to the Science club for Team Queerio?
No, the point that women are also allowed to do the same, if they wish, is what's lost on you. Team Queerio's Science group excludes non Team Queerio people in just the same way, and for the same reasons, as a Women's Science group excludes men.
You simply don't like it that men can be excluded from stuff.
AuroraSaab
Squire
Major elective cosmetic surgery isn't allowed on under 18's in the UK as you know. Plenty of examples from the USA.
Surely anyone undergoing any elective cosmetic surgery as drastic as breast removal or castration should have a high standard of psychiatric care beforehand though, whether they are 18 or 50. They don't get that under the affirmation model.
Puberty blockers are being banned in many of the European countries that initially rushed to follow the Dutch model so 'not universally well regarded' is a bit of an understatement.
The Cass Report found no evidence for the benefit of puberty blockers and a new review of the UK research suggests less than 30% of patients show improvement.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2023.2281986
Many children will desist from a transgender identity when adults. Much harder to do if you've been on puberty blockers and then cross sex hormones since 12.
AndyRM
Elder Goth
If they want to, sure. But that group doesn't say they exclude anyone and I'd be surprised if they did. It's not generally how Team Queerio roll. The fella taking the Team Queerio jokes workshop I've just finished is straight and nobody cared.
monkers
Legendary Member
The groups you point to are minority groups seeking inclusion. It is not unlike the historic past of women organising to be more included, eventually succeeding in getting some legislation.
The people and groups that you support are a majority group - women organising and campaigning to squeeze out minority groups. This is why it does not resemble feminism, and why not all feminists will ever get on board with it. It's behaving like men used to towards women - protecting interests.
One group of women in the campaign are from the left who support women's rights. The larger, more powerful and politically influential group are those with access to money - the Republican centred anti-women's rights groups supported by evangelical christians.
The latter of these two groups are not just anti-trans, more broadly trashing women's rights. Notice KJK who takes money from the evangelic christian nutjob groups to say variously, 'I an not a feminist', and supports the aims of the further right, pro-life, anti women's choice to do sex work, etc.
Humanist voices in the UK understand and are beginning to organise to oppose these groups, but it costs money.
One of my objections is to see folk like Stock who is a lesbian, using her sexuality to organise trans lives as a wedge issue within the lesbian community. Fortunately most lesbians see her for what it is, the language used to describe her between lesbians ain't pretty. As you might expect, I know rather a lot of lesbians!
monkers
Legendary Member
My word you talk in such riddles.
How can there be plenty of examples in the USA of surgery not being allowed in the UK. You just shoehorn anything in to bolster a position relevant or not.
Elective surgery for transitioning trans people is legal in England at the age of 17, in Scotland at 16, and Wales at 18 indicating that it is a devolved issue - and nothing at all to do with the USA.
D
Deleted member 159
Guest
If you leave this children into their early twenties, something like 85% will become at peace with their sex and continue onto having a productive life.
Where as incidents of suicide continue rise after major surgical intervention
Teacher, leave our kids alone !
AuroraSaab
Squire
You don't have to be a minority group to be oppressed. Male exclusion is allowed precisely because women are still oppressed, despite being 50% of the population.
No, it's women excluding men (regardless of how they identify) - men are part of the oppressor group, and not a minority anyway.
This is simply not true. You endless state that UK feminists groups are funded by Christian right wingers and provide no evidence. Nobody believes Kathleen Stock or Julie Bindell are right wingers.
She presumably thinks men can't be lesbians. This is not an unusual view.
I know quite a few, the actual female-from-birth same-sex-attracted ones. Not one of them think men can be lesbians.
Are you sure you aren't talking about men who identify as women and also identify as lesbians? You can sleep with who you like of course, but some of this group do seem to get rather angry when told lesbians aren't interested in sleeping with them.
monkers
Legendary Member
Trans people, children or adults do not get 'psychiatric care' as they are not mentally ill. You continue with this false narrative while pretending to care about children.
It shows how low your knowledge and appreciation of the issues actually is. Everything you present as 'evidence' is false flagged. Look again at your link.
What becomes clear is that the parameters for treatment were established in 2009. The allegation that treatment services is a valid one. I don't know anyone who disputes that. What we do dispute is that healthcare for trans kids urgently needs to be put in place, but it is not. Since the Cass report the recommendations have not been implemented.
There is an area where agreement ought to be found, but I've tried this approach with you before without success.
The reason that children's services as a whole are failing is due to the low priority given to it by a government who wish only to make the billionaires richer so that they themselves can benefit.
Child poverty levels in the UK are very disturbing, schools and colleges are underfunded and in disarray. Many of previously run local services for children have stopped. Local authorities are going bankrupt, even county councils. We are desperate.
There can be no doubt that Tavistock was a failing service. It was firefighting. There was increasing demand with decreasing resource.
It make no sense to me to demonise a service trying to work under impossible conditions.
So please stop with this mental health of trans people narrative. You have argued that the correct use of language is important, yet you as so sloppy with it.
There are other problems with your presentation that I could detail, but I am in need of lunch.
monkers
Legendary Member
blah, blah, blah ... just blather bullshit and bollocks, If you reply to me do at least answer the points. The assertion about the age that young people can seek or consent to surgery was not as AS presented.
AuroraSaab
Squire
They should because most of them have other issues like autism, ocd, higher number are in care, etc.
Also begs the question that if it isn't a mental health issue why does it require drugs and surgery.
