Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

The issue is mainly one of male violence, regardless of how the person identifies. The Brianna Ghey case is very unusual in having one of the killers being female.

Here's the list of trans women killed in the UK since 2009. It's 9 up to this recent case, unless there are others I'm not aware of, in 23 years. None were killed by strangers.

From https://kareningalasmith.com/2021/04/21/counting-dead-trans-people/

1. Andrea Waddel, 29, killed by a sex buyer, Neil McMillan, in Brighton in October 2009.
2. Destiny Lauren, 29, killed by a sex buyer Leon Fyle, in London in November 2009.
3. David/Sonia Burgess, 63, killed by Senthooran (Nina) Kanagasingham, a trans friend/associate (male who identified as trans at the time), in London in October 2010.
4. Lionel/Suzie Morl, 49, referred to in the press as a transvestite, who was killed by a couple with drug problems and who appear to have been exploiting him: David Hardman, 51, and Tracey Hurrell, 32, in Manchester in July or August 2011. Note the age difference between this couple, which is often (not always) an indicator of an abusive relationship.
5. Chrissie Azzopardi, 22, who was killed by a neighbour, Romy Maynard, possibly over drug debts, in London in April 2012.
6. Vanessa Santillan, 33, who was killed by husband Joaquin Hernandez in London in March 2015.
7. William Lound, 30, a gay man who occasionally wore clothes that have been described as women’s clothes, was killed by Lee Arnold. Arnold killed Lound after the two had had sex, in Salford in August 2016. The murder of William Lound has been described both as a homophobic murder and an anti-trans one.
8. Naomi Hersi, 36, who was killed by sex buyer Jesse McDonald after a drugs and sex hook-up in London in March 2018.
9. Amy Griffiths, 51, was killed by Martin Saberi, in Worcestershire on 11 January 2019. The two have been described as friends.

Meanwhile there are 4 transwomen murderers in Scottish jails alone. All killed males they already knew, as far as I can tell.

The issue is almost exclusively one of male violence.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...ans-inmates-womens-prisons-are-murderers/amp/

View attachment 5413

If you want to prevent transwomen being murdered I suggest you start by campaigning against male violence, and against sex work as that is clearly a factor, and in terms of this recent case, against the violent, sadistic, torture porn that is easily available to both children and adults.

Thank for the attempt, but it's another fail I'm afraid. There are multiple issues here.

Firstly your reply includes Isla Bryson who has never been committed to inclusion in the women's estate (as you well know), but for some reason you have chosen to include it. I didn't ask about prison placements, so why is this included?

Secondly the question asked how many females have been killed by trans women. You compiled what at a glance appears to be a list of men killed by men who later became trans women.

You didn't include Brianna in your list that would have extended that list to ten.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Thank for the attempt, but it's another fail I'm afraid. There are multiple issues here.

Firstly your reply includes Isla Bryson who has never been committed to inclusion in the women's estate (as you well know), but for some reason you have chosen to include it. I didn't ask about prison placements, so why is this included?

The photo is Isla Bryson, the article is about there being 4 transwomen murderers in Scottish women's prisons. You asked how many transwomen are in jail for murder - full stats seem unavailable, but 4 in Scotland alone as the article shows.

Secondly the question asked how many females have been killed by trans women. You compiled what at a glance appears to be a list of men killed by men who later became trans women.

Yes, because the issue is male violence, whether it's women or men who identify as women who are being killed, or who are doing the killing. We can reduce the opportunity for male violence against women by ensuring single sex spaces when most appropriate.

You didn't include Brianna in your list that would have extended that list to ten.

Yes, and we should all be relieved that it is so few and that trans people are a very safe demographic in the UK.

Bearing all that in mind, what are you doing about male violence, violent porn, and the sex trade, as these seem to be factors in the murders of those transwomen?

 

[monkers]

Thank for the attempt, but it's another fail I'm afraid. There are multiple issues here.

Firstly your reply includes Isla Bryson who has never been committed to inclusion in the women's estate (as you well know), but for some reason you have chosen to include it. I didn't ask about prison placements, so why is this included?

The photo is Isla Bryson, the article is about there being 4 transwomen murderers in Scottish women's prisons. You asked how many transwomen are in jail for murder - full stats seem unavailable, but 4 in Scotland alone as the article shows.

No I didn't.

 

[monkers]

Yes, because the issue is male violence, whether it's women or men who identify as women who are being killed, or who are doing the killing. We can reduce the opportunity for male violence against women by ensuring single sex spaces when most appropriate.

It is asserted by some that testosterone is implicated in sport. I could understand as a basis for argument that testosterone is implicated in male aggression and/or violence. I can not see reason to argue that trans women with no/low testosterone have the same tendency - this is clearly not to do with any supposed male advantage.

Is it not proper to segregate those people who commit murder into separate groups according to testosterone level at the time of the offence? I think the data should be mined to examine this. I haven't seen such data, have you?

 

[monkers]

Yes, and we should all be relieved that it is so few and that trans people are a very safe demographic in the UK.

Bearing all that in mind, what are you doing about male violence, violent porn, and the sex trade, as these seem to be factors in the murders of those transwomen?

What am I doing? Not so much. I used to be active in my professional roles. I'm a retired person, I am not an activist or campaigner. I am not politically involved, though I have what I consider above average political awareness.

I'm just a person who initially joined the site to chat about bicycles and cycling, but then I was overwhelmed by the extent of lies being told on this site about trans people.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Number of females killed by trans women in the UK?

The number of women killed by men is one every 2.6 days. How they identify is irrelevant though. It's all male violence and as we can't tell the lovely men from the violent ones there are no men that should get a free pass to women's spaces. Here's one though:

Bronwyn Jones, now reverting to male name and pronouns, awaiting trial for killing their mother.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/anna-jones-hampshire-petersfield-ben-mitchell-b1127700.html

There are actually several others jailed for murder who routinely dressed as women but as you are very picky about who can be designated trans or not I won't list them.

Number of trans women killed by females? Who are the targets? Who are those with intent to cause harm?

Vanishingly small. Just this recent case and the other from the list of 9, in which both were jointly responsible with someone else and didn't act alone.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Is it not proper to segregate those people who commit murder into separate groups according to testosterone level at the time of the offence? I think the data should be mined to examine this. I haven't seen such data, have you?

The pattern of male violence is related to multiple factors, most more significant than testosterone levels. It's primarily related to male socialisation and greater physical strength giving greater opportunity.

Would there be as many rapes as there are if women were easily able to push off the men who try to assault them? Of course not.

Segregate prisons based on testosterone? So transmen on testosterone must go in male prisons? I wonder how that would work out for them. Not too well I think. We don't give men with low testosterone through illness or age the option of going in women's prisons to serve their sentences because that would also be nonsensical.

 

[monkers]

The number of women killed by men is one every 2.6 days. How they identify is irrelevant though. It's all male violence and as we can't tell the lovely men from the violent ones there are no men that should get a free pass to women's spaces. Here's one though:

Bronwyn Jones, now reverting to male name and pronouns, awaiting trial for killing their mother.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/anna-jones-hampshire-petersfield-ben-mitchell-b1127700.html

There are actually several others jailed for murder who routinely dressed as women but as you are very picky about who can be designated trans or not I won't list them.



Vanishingly small. Just this recent case and the other from the list of 9, in which both were jointly responsible with someone else and didn't act alone.

Again you are replying to questions that I didn't ask. We all know that the number of women that are killed is horrific.

When the number of murders of women is corrected to the population number of cisgender women it is a smaller number than for trans women.

Not that murder is the only crime that women are subject to in horrifying numbers.

I will still continue to say that serious crime against the person is way too high in this country regardless of any demographic characteristic. Only a change from this rotten government can change that. The accusations against trans women are not real, they are a policies and campaigns driven by certain politicians and political types in order to distract from the failures of government.

Asylum seekers are campaigned against because the government do not address the number of legal migrants coming to this country. Trans women are campaigned against because the government do not address the discrimination against women.

 

[monkers]

The pattern of male violence is related to multiple factors, most more significant than testosterone levels. It's primarily related to male socialisation and greater physical strength giving greater opportunity.

Would there be as many rapes as there are if women were easily able to push off the men who try to assault them? Of course not.

Segregate prisons based on testosterone? So transmen on testosterone must go in male prisons? I wonder how that would work out for them. Not too well I think. We don't give men with low testosterone through illness or age the option of going in women's prisons to serve their sentences because that would also be nonsensical.

Why are you talking about prison and prison placements again?

I can't accept your argument, it is without evidence or foundation, and contrary to your argument when talking about sport. I can spell this out if you can not see how contrary you are being.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Your entire argument on these issues rest on the unevidenced claim that men who identify as women are somehow magically different from other men. Whether it's through your
insistence on some innate gender-born in the wrong body-lady brain type thing or due to reduced testosterone you constantly suggest that men who call themselves women are somehow different to other men and should be given accomodations that we don't give to other men.

The crime and prison stats tell us different, the sports research tells us different. That there somehow exists a special group of men who should be treated differently is an unevidenced belief and it's detrimental to girls and women.

 

[monkers]

Your entire argument on these issues rest on the unevidenced claim that men who identify as women are somehow magically different from other men. Whether it's through your
insistence on some innate gender-born in the wrong body-lady brain type thing or due to reduced testosterone you constantly suggest that men who call themselves women are somehow different to other men and should be given accomodations that we don't give to other men.

The crime and prison stats tell us different, the sports research tells us different. That there somehow exists a special group of men who should be treated differently is an unevidenced belief and it's detrimental to girls and women.

I haven't constructed an argument. I'm challenging your position. When I question you about it, you ignore the actual questions and gish gallop.
Today I haven't asked you about prisons, prisoners, or prison placements.

You are now attempting to distract from the questions by demeaning the existence of trans lives with utter rudeness.

Either you can substantiate your position by answering the questions, otherwise you are simply trashing your own arguments with posts that contradict each other.

You rejected the Canadian sports review of the available data that says that male advantage in sport has something to do with testosterone levels, but more to do with male socialisation. This is because your then argument relied on testosterone levels.

You are now rejecting the testosterone suggestion about male aggression and/or violence, saying that this is due to male socialisation.

You've made these two contrary assumptions without being able to evidence either of them.

You think the escape is to trash the lived experiences of trans women who have no record of criminality.

Most male violence against women is domestic - we both know this, so how can it be correct to say that there is more male opportunity? In the case of domestic violence of heterosexual couples there is equal opportunity for violence (the victim need not be awake even at the time of the fatal violence).

 

[AuroraSaab]

You are now attempting to distract from the questions by demeaning the existence of trans lives with utter rudeness.

Nothing rude in my answers, though you have a cheek suggesting it considering how you behave in here.

Either you can substantiate your position by answering the questions, otherwise you are simply trashing your own arguments with posts that contradict each other.

I've answered them.

You rejected the Canadian sports review of the available data that says that male advantage in sport has something to do with testosterone levels, but more to do with male socialisation. This is because your then argument relied on testosterone levels.

It wasn't a science based review - it was an advocacy piece by a campaigning organisation. It has been debunked and you rely on it simply because it's a desperate grasping at straws because the actual science shows retained male advantage even after reducing testosterone.

Here's a scathing response to it from actual sports scientists here:

https://idrottsforum.org/devineetal221129/

You are now rejecting the testosterone suggestion about male aggression and/or violence, saying that this is due to male socialisation.

Testosterone increases aggression but it isn't the whole story in male offending patterns and it's ridiculous to suggest it is.

You think the escape is to trash the lived experiences of trans women who have no record of criminality.

By that logic any male who hasn't committed a crime should also be allowed in women's single sex spaces along with this special group of men that you champion. We all know that would be ridiculous for obvious reasons.

Most male violence against women is domestic - we both know this, so how can it be correct to say that there is more male opportunity? In the case of domestic violence of heterosexual couples there is equal opportunity for violence (the victim need not be awake even at the time of the fatal violence).

Having greater physical strength provides the opportunity for men to enact violence and intimidation against women in a way that women cannot enact it against men.

700 pages and still no evidence why some men are special and not like the others.

 

[monkers]

Here you go gish gallsoping and making stuff up.

You simply can not answer questions without resorting to this. You haven't answered the questions put to you, because you can't.

Idiot.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I've answered them but as you are insistent that crimes by transwomen can somehow magically be unhitched from crimes by other men no answer is going to satisfy you.

We might as well discuss whether green eyed men have murdered any women this year and if they haven't why shouldn't green eyed men be allowed in women's spaces. It's the same logic.

 

[Deleted member 159]

You rejected the Canadian sports review of the available data that says that male advantage in sport has something to do with testosterone levels, but more to do with male socialisation

Something to do with Testosterone 🤣