Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

You are literally quoting it yourself that they do in fact call the 230 without GRCs transgender. As I say, take it up with the Ministry of Justice. I'm sure they'll take on board your preferred definition. Stonewall and every transactivist in the UK will probably be a bit miffed that Trans = GRC now but I'm sure you'll win them over with your logic and explain why the much demanded self ID has gone out the window.

Of course, a handy side effect of your new found 'Trans = GRC' stance is that it allows you to say that Scarlet Blake isn't a transwoman even though they transitioned at 12, went through the Tavistock, and got hormones at 17.

This is exactly what I quoted from the text from the document from the Ministry of Justice.

You are now presenting the evidence as if you are right and I was wrong all along.

And it is isn't the first time I've quoted the official report - you dismissed it then too.

It won't wash Aurora, you are a liar and a moron.

What a waste of people's time - as usual.

Do we know whether Scarlett Blake had a GRC?

My response.

I have no actual knowledge.

I have no idea about the status of Scarlet Blake and have previously said so. Nothing in Scarlet Blake's history described by you makes her a trans woman under the law using the distinctions made by the Ministry of Justice. If she has a GRC then she is a trans prisoner; if not she is a transgender prisoner.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Here you go again, making out there is a difference between the use of the word transgender and the word trans by the MOJ. You wanted self ID, now you don't like the consequences when the stats show what they show.

Eddie Izzard doesn't have a GRC apparently. So Eddie Izzard is not a transwoman if we follow your new position of 'only GRC = transgender'.

The rest of your post is the usual abuse because your argument here is so ridiculous you can't even make it sound remotely coherent.

 

[monkers]

Here you go again, making out there is a difference between the use of the word transgender and the word trans by the MOJ. You wanted self ID, now you don't like the consequences when the stats show what they show.

Eddie Izzard doesn't have a GRC apparently. So Eddie Izzard is not a transwoman if we follow your new position of 'only GRC = transgender'.

The rest of your post is the usual abuse because your argument here is so ridiculous you can't even make it sound remotely coherent.

There is a difference in the way that the Ministry of Justice uses the words 'transgender' and 'trans'. Within this latest exchange you have even said so you fruitloop.

I don't know if Izzard is transitioning, has applied for a GRC, or has a GRC. But fame carries no favour. If Izzard does not have a GRC they are a transgender woman. If they have a GRC / amended birth certificate, they are a legally a woman and female for all purposes save for a few exceptional circumstances detailed in the act.

 

[AuroraSaab]

There is a difference in the way that the Ministry of Justice uses the words 'transgender' and 'trans'. Within this latest exchange you have even said so you fruitloop.

Only you thinks this. The MOJ make no distinction other than 'trans with a GRC' and 'trans without a GRC'.

I don't know if Izzard is transitioning, has applied for a GRC, or has a GRC. But fame carries no favour. If Izzard does not have a GRC they are a transgender woman. If they have a GRC / amended birth certificate, they are a legally a woman and female for all purposes save for a few exceptional circumstances detailed in the act.

So male prisoners who say they are trans are transwomen then.... which is exactly how the MOJ counts them.

Seriously, ring the MOJ and explain to them how their definitions are completely wrong and confusing and there are in fact only 11 transgender people in jails in England and Wales ...... I'm going have to leave you to it because your gymnastics are so exhausting to watch I'm going to have a lie down.

 

[monkers]

Only you thinks this. The MOJ make no distinction other than 'trans with a GRC' and 'trans without a GRC'.

So male prisoners who say they are trans are transwomen then.... which is exactly how the MOJ counts them.

Seriously, ring the MOJ and explain to them how their definitions are completely wrong and confusing and there are in fact only 11 transgender people in jails in England and Wales ...... I'm going have to leave you to it because your gymnastics are so exhausting to watch I'm going to have a lie down.

Do I have to constantly spoon feed you? Perhaps you need a highchair rather than a high horse?

From the report ... note the definition from the report which is not authored by me, nor approved or disapproved of by me. These are the definitions that the press and we should be observing when attempting analysis of the data. It really is chicken shoot easy to understand.

For the purposes of this report, transgender prisoners are defined as those individuals known within prison to be currently living in, or presenting in, a gender different to their legal gender and who have had a local case board (as defined by ‘The Care and Management of Individuals who are Transgender’ policy framework ) and is known to the diversity and inclusion lead within the individual prison where they are housed. Prisoners who have a full Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) are excluded from any analysis within this report. Only an overall count is provided to ensure compliance with the Gender Recognition Act 2004 . Statistics on the number of applications to the Gender Recognition Panel are published in Tribunals and gender recognition statistics quarterly at www.gov.uk/government/collections/tribunals-statistics.

The other 11 people in the report are those people who are men and women with a GRC who are not cisgender, not included in this report within the cohort of transgender people, ie they are what are known as trans men and trans women. They are included in the report to ensure compliance with the GRA - which is exactly what I've been telling you.

Prisoners who have a full Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) are excluded from any analysis within this report. Only an overall count is provided to ensure compliance with the Gender Recognition Act 2004

 

[AuroraSaab]

So the 230 are transgender then.... and 70% of them are imprisoned for violent or sexual crimes.

But again, you are making out there is a substantial difference between the non GRC ones and the GRC ones. There isn't. One group have a bit of paper, the other group doesn't.

I really am leaving you to it now. I'm glad you've spent a day further demonstrating what an incoherent idea gender identity is though. You've very clearly shown us all how you needed to move the goal posts to avoid the unwelcome reality that people will pretend to be something for nefarious reasons.

 

[monkers]

So the 230 are transgender then.... and 70% of them are imprisoned for violent or sexual crimes.

For the purposes of the report and the definition given therein, there are 230 transgender prisoners. I don't know what the offences committed were or in what numbers. I am unable to verity the 70% figure. But let's not pretend that this places women prisoners at risk - because the evidence is that it doesn't.

But again, you are making out there is a substantial difference between the non GRC ones and the GRC ones. There isn't. One group have a bit of paper, the other group doesn't.

The substantial difference is between the cohorts is a matter of human rights under the law. The Ministry of Justice is required to respect the law - funny that.

I really am leaving you to it now. I'm glad you've spent a day further demonstrating what an incoherent idea gender identity is though. You've very clearly shown us all how you needed to move the goal posts to avoid the unwelcome reality that people will pretend to be something for nefarious reasons.

We didn't discuss gender identity today so that much is tosh. You've very clearly shown that you wish to pretend that women prisoners are at risk from transgender prisoners when the evidence says that they are not. It's fair to question your motive.

 

[monkers]

@AuroraSaab

If I were to say 'The MOJ say there are 230+ transgender prisoners, plus another 11 trans prisoners with GRCs', am I right or am I wrong? Yes or no will suffice as an answer.

 

[classic33]

So the 230 are transgender then.... and 70% of them are imprisoned for violent or sexual crimes.*

*And GBH and robbery, according to your link to the Guardian. Although you did miss that piece out.
Why was that?

 

[monkers]

I had thought that the 2021/22 report was the latest available. However a later report has been published recently.

It can be viewed here ...

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../HMPPS_Offender_Equalities_2022-23_Report.pdf

 

[AuroraSaab]

@AuroraSaab
If I were to say 'The MOJ say there are 230+ transgender prisoners, plus another 11 trans prisoners with GRCs', am I right or am I wrong? Yes or no will suffice as an answer.

It doesn't actually say '11 trans prisoners with a GRC', it says '11 prisoners with a GRC'.

You are trying to pretend there's some sort of 'true trans' thing going on whereby only the 11 with a GRC are really transgender and the others aren't.

Your more recent report isn't any different. It differentiates between trans with no GRC and prisoners with a GRC because it bases the stats on self ID and GRC possession. The MOJ makes no determination as to what makes the 2 groups different other than that.

The numbers have gone up by 30 though.

84% of the 268 transgender non GRC prisoners are male. That tells you something about male patterns of offending surely.

*And GBH and robbery, according to your link to the Guardian. Although you did miss that piece out. Why was that?

I would assume people would know that gbh and robbery would come under violent crime. More than happy to have you point out that gbh and robbery are amongst the violent crimes that 70% of trans prisoners are in jail for, according to the Telegraph. I'm not sure it helps whatever case you think you are making but thanks for highlighting these awful crimes.

 

[AuroraSaab]

We didn't discuss gender identity today so that much is tosh. You've very clearly shown that you wish to pretend that women prisoners are at risk from transgender prisoners when the evidence says that they are not. It's fair to question your motive.

The current discussion is on types of offending in the transgender prison population. Nobody but you has tried to move it to being about where they are placed. We've already had that discussion.

 

[Deleted member 159]

View: https://twitter.com/DadRogd/status/1762906306782888263?t=6oe3XULY-MqhG9UGij_wjQ&s=19


Further reinforcing sex matters, ideology doesn't

 

[multitool]

View: https://twitter.com/DadRogd/status/1762906306782888263?t=6oe3XULY-MqhG9UGij_wjQ&s=19


Further reinforcing sex matters, ideology doesn't

There are 33,000 officers in the Met, and a staggering 4 of them are transgender.

Obviously this a massive problem.

 

[monkers]

If I were to say 'The MOJ say there are 230+ transgender prisoners, plus another 11 trans prisoners with GRCs', am I right or am I wrong? Yes or no will suffice as an answer.

It doesn't actually say '11 trans prisoners with a GRC', it says '11 prisoners with a GRC'.

So I'd be wrong to say that then? Interesting.

The MOJ say there are 230+ transgender prisoners, plus another 11 trans prisoners with GRCs.

You don't know what are you are saying half the time fruitloops.

So on the assumption that you can call such people 'trans' and I can't then I'll call them 'cisgender' since their legal sex and legal gender identity are congruent. Unlike your own.

Now you love a binary. If the two of us were committed for joint enterprise is some crime or another, I would tick sex:female, gender identity:female and go straight into the women's prison. On the other hand you'd have to tick sex:female, gender identityther. You'd find yourself having to face those hearings wondering what prison you'll end up in. Cool, huh?