Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

How have the English police managed with the same law these last thirty plus years? The English law never applied to Scotland, so Scotland has been brought into line with the rest of the UK. Nothing else.

It isn't the same law at all. In England and Wales 'hate crime' is an aggravating factor that can be applied when an actual crime has already been committed. It's taken into account for sentencing purposes. There are no offences which are stand alone 'hate crimes' as such, unlike in Scotland now.

The English police haven't managed it btw. There has been a lot of controversy about recording non crime hate incidents against people's name without them even knowing. You might have one against your name, Classic. The police don't have to tell you. Even those can't be made anonymously though.

Eh? On Tuesday afternoon, Police Scotland confirmed they had received complaints about the social media post but added: “The comments are not assessed to be criminal and no further action will be taken.”

This will be the next issue that needs clarification and testing in law. Not a crime but recorded against your name anyway? On the basis of the hurt feelings of an anonymous online complainant?

 

[Deleted member 159]

This will be the next issue that needs clarification and testing in law. Not a crime but recorded against your name anyway? On the basis of the hurt feelings of an anonymous online complainant?

This is a far more serious aspect.

A register of Non Crime Hate Incidents logged against your name.

You will never know, unless you do a subject access request.

The ramifications could be career ending, only finding out when businesses do a DBS check.

Only recourse, sue the police to remove your name.

Punishment is the process, when no crime has been committed

 

[Bromptonaut]

This is a far more serious aspect.

A register of Non Crime Hate Incidents logged against your name.

You will never know, unless you do a subject access request.

The ramifications could be career ending, only finding out when businesses do a DBS check.

Only recourse, sue the police to remove your name.

Punishment is the process, when no crime has been committed

The recording of non crime hate incidents are not limited to Scotland.

Unless Scotland is different they don't show up on DBS unless it's the enhanced type (ie for 'high risk' employment) and then only if relevant to the post sought.

 

[classic33]

It isn't the same law at all. In England and Wales 'hate crime' is an aggravating factor that can be applied when an actual crime has already been committed. It's taken into account for sentencing purposes. There are no offences which are stand alone 'hate crimes' as such, unlike in Scotland now.

The English police haven't managed it btw. There has been a lot of controversy about recording non crime hate incidents against people's name without them even knowing. You might have one against your name, Classic. The police don't have to tell you. Even those can't be made anonymously though.

This will be the next issue that needs clarification and testing in law. Not a crime but recorded against your name anyway? On the basis of the hurt feelings of an anonymous online complainant?

1.2 Hate crimes recorded by the police​

Hate crime is defined as ‘any criminal offence which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice towards someone based on a personal characteristic.’ This common definition was agreed in 2007 by the police, Crown Prosecution Service, Prison Service (now the National Offender Management Service) and other agencies that make up the criminal justice system. There are five centrally monitored strands of hate crime:

• race or ethnicity
• religion or beliefs
• sexual orientation
• disability, and
• transgender identity

From
https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...022/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2021-to-2022

You might have a few against your name, I'd check if I were you.


https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime
Gives the following

Hate crime​

The law recognises five types of hate crime on the basis of:

• Race
• Religion
• Disability
• Sexual orientation
• Transgender identity

Any crime can be prosecuted as a hate crime if the offender has either:

• demonstrated hostility based on race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity

Or

• been motivated by hostility based on race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity

That's from the people that secure convictions when possible. Not the police. And there is nothing to prevent a third party*, reporting it, in England and Wales.

*Without the need for details being given,

 

[Deleted member 159]

The home secretary told the federation of police to stop recording petty incidents and raised the threshold to recording these minor squabbles

Despite this, police are still recording NCHI

Which

"Non-crime hate incidents (NCHIs) do not count as crimes but can show up on a job applicant's vetting checks."

 

[Bromptonaut]

The home secretary told the federation of police to stop recording petty incidents and raised the threshold to recording these minor squabbles

Despite this, police are still recording NCHI

Which

"Non-crime hate incidents (NCHIs) do not count as crimes but can show up on a job applicant's vetting checks."

It may surprise you but the Home Office does not have operational control of what police do, or do not, do.

Maybe, just maybe, there are good reasons for that....

 

[Deleted member 159]

It may surprise you but the Home Office does not have operational control of what police do, or do not, do.

Maybe, just maybe, there are good reasons for that....

Well they might take heed. The conviction success rate is plummeting, resources wasted on recording petty social media disputes

 

[classic33]

Well they might take heed. The conviction success rate is plummeting, resources wasted on recording petty social media disputes

And you know that part to be fact?

 

[AndyRM]

And you know that part to be fact?

He doesn't know sh!t about anything, as he's proven time and again.

 

[AuroraSaab]

That's from the people that secure convictions when possible. Not the police. And there is nothing to prevent a third party*, reporting it, in England and Wales.

*Without the need for details being given,

It's prosecuted as a hate crime, ie an aggravating factor. Can you give me some examples of these specific hate crimes you think exist, that are not already crimes under UK legislation?

The code of practise for the police in England and Wales has become stricter over what can be recorded as a non crime hate incident - exactly because of the issues now facing Scotland over freedom of speech and vexatious reporting. Perception based recording of 'hate' without applying an objective standard is now unlawful and theoretically all non crime hate incidents should be in the process of being audited or deleted. To what extent they are/have been in individual police forces nobody seems to know.​

​

I'm not against recording meaningful non crime data. It can be a useful indicator of many things. The Scottish law goes way beyond this though.​

 

[AuroraSaab]

And you know that part to be fact?

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/weve-was...its-out-at-non-crime-hate-incident-reporting/

120,000 non crime hate incidents recorded over a 5 year period. That's going to be quite a bit of police time surely. And it doesn't even cover things aimed at women because the legislation doesn't cover sex.

 

[classic33]

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/weve-was...its-out-at-non-crime-hate-incident-reporting/

120,000 non crime hate incidents recorded over a 5 year period. That's going to be quite a bit of police time surely. And it doesn't even cover things aimed at women because the legislation doesn't cover sex.

As will the reporting of any crime.

You'll have checked your police file by now.

 

[Rusty Nails]

The BBC appeared to accuse Rowling of Hate Crime in an earlier headline ... but then stated they were "not criminal"

"JK Rowling hate crime tweets not criminal - police https://t.co/gMy34ytoxc "

You have misquoted the headline.

It says "Hate law tweets" not "Hate crime tweets", a very important difference, and there is no accusation by the BBC of criminality in the report, but it makes it clear the tweets are a provocative protest against the new law.

Lack of clarity and bias all appear to add to the confusion around this new law.

 

[Ian H]

The BBC appeared to accuse Rowling of Hate Crime in an earlier headline ... but then stated they were "not criminal"

"JK Rowling hate crime tweets not criminal - police https://t.co/gMy34ytoxc "

Self-described as such, I believe.

 

[AuroraSaab]

As will the reporting of any crime.

These aren't crimes though. Any word on that list of things that are Hate Crimes yet?

You'll have checked your police file by now.

I don't feel the need to as (the unlikely probability of) having a non crime hate incident attached to my name will not currently affect me at all. It could very much affect others though and I don't think people should have that worry. Do you think they should?

The BBC JKR headline was hate crimes yesterday; they changed it to hate laws today.