Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

In a world population of some 8 billion or so, the GCs between them trawl the internet to find cases. But as Multitool observes, the number of women being attacked by trans women in public spaces - that is to say those recognised in law as women - is vanishingly small in the UK.

The point is that trans identifying men offend at the same rate as other men. There is no reason to regard them as different from other men in terms of safeguarding.

Hindu men actually offend at lower than average rates than other men in the UK. Nobody would say that means Hindu men should have access to women's spaces because we all know it's nonsense to pretend some men are different from others re being in women's spaces. We all know that it's their sex which is the issue and not simply how lovely or harmless any particular man is.

Without traducing the horror of any attack, I find it necessary to point out to you that the legal rights of trans women, and the legal rights of those without a GRC are much different. There are reasons for this which I detailed in the past.

A man with a GRC is a man with a GRC. It confers some accommodations, that's all.

When I point that some trans women have had surgery, so can not possibly be within a cohort that can be accused of rape, and those without surgery but have taken hormones instead are no longer capable of rape due to penile atrophy and impotence, you make inappropriate remarks.

The benchmark for women's and girl's safety and privacy should not be 'being raped with a penis'. That is a very low bar for what constitutes harm.

You don't need either surgery or hormones to get a GRC as you well know, and the idea that the presence of a man in women's spaces is rendered harmless by him having erectile dysfunction is rubbish.

 

[classic33]

The point is that trans identifying men offend at the same rate as other men. There is no reason to regard them as different from other men in terms of safeguarding.

That being the case, and your attitude to trans women and trans men, explain how with a male prison population of 3,648 from a population of 1,683,469 males(between the ages 15 and 64 years old) there are only two trans women in Irish prisons.
The figures don't match what you're claiming.

And at any point over the last ten years, that figure has never reached double figures. Two in the last seven years were detained at port of entry(not Irish nationals) and another was found to have entered the country illegally. Sentence served, and deported.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It's pro rata per demographic so you would need to know the number of men who identify as women in Ireland to calculate.

Do you have a figure in mind as to how many men in a women's prison would be an acceptable number? Mine is zero.

 

[monkers]

The point is that trans identifying men offend at the same rate as other men.

You keep claiming that without evidence. The more you say it, the more of a fraud you are.

 

[classic33]

It's pro rata per demographic so you would need to know the number of men who identify as women in Ireland to calculate.

Do you have a figure in mind as to how many men in a women's prison would be an acceptable number? Mine is zero.

Female to male have outnumbered male to female since the Gender Recognition Act was passed in 2015 in Ireland.

But, the total issued to date is less than 1,400, with female to male still the larger of the two. And yet the figures for those in prison have never reached double figures.

They aren't men posing as women, or women posing as men. Irish law recognises them as what is on the legally issued paperwork. However much you might disagree with the laws of another country, you'll have to respect them or find yourself in trouble.

 

[monkers]

A man with a GRC is a man with a GRC. It confers some accommodations, that's all.

No it confers a lot of accommodation. As you know exceptions are to be made on a case by case basis with the bar for exceptions set very high.

And it's not just a case of 'that's all'. You can sneer at people's human rights all you like, but you have to remember that it's women's rights you are arguing for. Balance between rights is not met by the exclusion of one group of people.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You keep claiming that without evidence. The more you say it, the more of a fraud you are.

The evidence is the MOJ stats. Take it up with them. Oh and let's not do the 'You're only trans with a GRC' thing again because that's the opposite of what you've spent 99% of this thread saying.

But, the total issued to date is less than 1,400, with female to male still the larger of the two. And yet the figures for those in prison have never reached double figures.

So only those with a cert are trans? This isn't what you've said previously.

No it confers a lot of accommodation. As you know exceptions are to be made on a case by case basis with the bar for exceptions set very high.

Not case by case with singles spaces it isn't, as the government have clarified. You can exclude men with a GRC because they are men.

Balance between rights is not met by the exclusion of one group of people.

Sometimes it is. A Muslim prayer group has every right to exclude non Muslims. A women's rape counselling service has every right to exclude non women. An under 12's youth club can rightfully exclude over 12's. Trans support groups can rightfully exclude non trans people.

In fact, quite often the rights of a particular group depends on others not being allowed access. If there's a social club formed to support those with disabilities it can't meet its purpose if it's open to everybody.

Groups are allowed stuff for themselves, including women. You don't have a right to be in every single thing and every single space.

 

[classic33]

So only those with a cert are trans? This isn't what you've said previously.

With regards the situation in Irish law, I think you'll find it's the only thing I've said.

 

[monkers]

You're only trans with a GRC' thing again because that's the opposite of what you've spent 99% of this thread saying.

No it isn't you utter fraud.

I've never said the opposite. As the system stands the only people with their sex amended after transition on their birth certificates are those who apply for a GRC and are approved. Without a GRC a person remains the sex stated on their birth certificate - except not all birth certificates use the word 'sex' on the certificate.

 

[AuroraSaab]

So only those with a certificate should be regarded as actually the opposite sex, Classic? I think you'll find that's a very unpopular opinion with trans activists who tend to think saying you are the opposite sex is all that's required. It would also remove some of the protections that trans people (quite rightly) have.

 

[classic33]

So only those with a certificate should be regarded as actually the opposite sex, Classic? I think you'll find that's a very unpopular opinion with trans activists who tend to think saying you are the opposite sex is all that's required. It would also remove some of the protections that trans people (quite rightly) have.

For the purpose of prison placement, Ireland, its the Gender Recognition Certificate, if one is issued, that dictates where a prisoner will be going.

Twist what's been said as regards offender numbers to your hearts content. It still won't change official figures, which is all I've used. Not third party hearsay.

Maybe you can start explaining why your repeated claim isn't reflected in real life. But I don't think you can even start.

 

[AuroraSaab]

These are the England and Wales stats. Trans identifying men are over represented in the sex offender stats. We don't have the figures for Ireland (as far as I know) so neither you nor I can say if the same occurs there. Men shouldn't be in women's single sex spaces like prisons, regardless.

 

[monkers]

So only those with a certificate should be regarded as actually the opposite sex,

As usual I'm telling you what the law says, and making it known that how you interpret the law is utter bollocks. A person born male without a GRC remains legally male. A person born male with a GRC is legally female. Despite your fraudulent claims, I've never said otherwise.

That you don't like the law, doesn't change the law.

The is no medical test for gender incongruence. The diagnosis is formed by the person saying over and again for a period of a minimum of 24 months that they have the self-knowledge that their gender identity is incongruent with their biological sex - not necessarily in that exact form of words.

To suggest that trans women subject themselves to medical transition via surgeries and hormones in order to sexually predate on women is so obviously stupid. Following transition they can't. Or are going to go into one of your silly 'floppy penis' rants again?

 

[monkers]

These are the England and Wales stats. Trans identifying men are over represented in the sex offender stats. We don't have the figures for Ireland (as far as I know) so neither you nor I can say if the same occurs there. Men shouldn't be in women's single sex spaces like prisons, regardless.


View attachment 6008

How many trans women have sexually predated on women. Of those, how many are in the female prison estate?

You keep saying this stuff about trans women, but the data is not in your so-called evidence is it. You are just effectively trolling with personal prejudice.

 

[classic33]

As usual I'm telling you what the law says, and making it know that how you interpret the law is utter bollocks. A person born male without a GRC remains legally male. A person born male with a GRC is legally female. Despite your fraudulent claims, I've never said otherwise.

That you don't like the law, doesn't change the law.

The is no medical test for gender incongruence. The diagnosis is formed by the person saying over and again for a period of a minimum of 24 months that they have the self-knowledge that their gender identity is incongruent with their biological sex - not necessarily in that exact form of words.

To suggest that trans women subject themselves to medical transition via surgeries and hormones in order to sexually predate on women is so obviously stupid. Following transition they can't. Or are going to go into one of your silly 'floppy penis' rants again?

I think she was having a go at me for using official figures. The number of trans women prisoners with a court issued Gender Recognition Certificate, being held in a prison that matches the Gender Reconstruction Certificate. Official figures, which disprove the claim she's made.
I wonder why she doesn't include trans men in her figures, as there's more trans men in prison(the male estate) than there are trans women.

She's using her old diversionary methods of trying to disprove what she asked you for. Purely and simply because it doesn't match what she wants.