Gender again. Sorry!

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monkers

Legendary Member
As there's no difference in the rates of criminality between men who say they aren't men and other men, then I think we can assume he's including transwomen in his 'millions of men are a danger to women'.

The usual lie being repeated yet again. The author of the report that you are basing this on is saying that people are willfully telling this lie.

You are an habitual liar, completely unable to stop yourself or moderate your views in light of facts.
 
Djeune's research said they had male pattern criminality. UK stats show at least the same offending rate as other men, if not higher.

900 pages and you've still failed to show why this special subset of men should be treated differently from other men. Other than they say so.

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monkers

Legendary Member
She also has explained the anomaly.

Not listening to the author - now that is willfully mischaracterising the report.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
''Subsets. magical thinking, gender ideology, trans activists, blah''. Repeat ad nauseum until the conversion therapy from being a decent human being is complete.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
Djeune's research said they had male pattern criminality. UK stats show at least the same offending rate as other men, if not higher.

900 pages and you've still failed to show why this special subset of men should be treated differently from other men. Other than they say so.

View attachment 6074

Whatever you think the numbers are. These offenders are not in women's prison in England & Wales. And you know it.
 
Correct. Any violent or sex offending transwomen have been moved out to men's jails since Jan 2024. Which is good news for the imprisoned women who were previously forced to accommodate them.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
Correct. Any violent or sex offending transwomen have been moved out to men's jails since Jan 2024. Which is good news for the imprisoned women who were previously forced to accommodate them.

I dispute the Jan 2024 date. That is true for Scotland but not England and Wales. But I'm forced to repeat, the picture in Scotland is distorted due to it having modern purpose built prisons that hold men and women. Therefore it is easy to say something like, ''there are dangerous transgender prisoners held in HMP Grampian; a prison that holds women''. It gives the impression this is a women's prison. It isn't.

When all of the mischaracterisations are removed, the picture is somewhat different.

In prison stats, the term ' transgender prisoners' does not include trans women. Your deliberately sloppy language of 'trans women' are not in the same cohort; but anyway we've been round this route so many times, but what happens? Yup, you keep lying.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
How can you say someone is lying to say TiMs are male.

It's alright, Don't worry yourself, you couldn't understand.
 

Ian H

Legendary Member
She isn't a transphobe so I'm not sure how that would work. You would seem to have swallowed some unedifying Kool Aid yourself.

Saying that she finds the views of anyone who disagrees with her to be 'despicable', including those who wished to disagree but remain friends, seems extreme to me.
 

Rusty Nails

Country Member
Saying that she finds the views of anyone who disagrees with her to be 'despicable', including those who wished to disagree but remain friends, seems extreme to me.

If you find this, the full quote, extreme then you must have led a very sheltered life. They are talking about strongly opposing views. Are Radcliffe, Watson etc. extreme to say they are appalled by her position? I find the views of Braverman, Badenoch, Farage and CXRAndy despicable and hope that doesn't class me as extreme.

" In truth, the condemnation of certain individuals was far less surprising to me than the fact that some of them then emailed me, or sent messages through third parties, to check that we were still friends.

The thing is, those appalled by my position often fail to grasp how truly despicable I find their
s.

I’ve watched “no debate” become the slogan of those who once posed as defenders of free speech. I’ve witnessed supposedly progressive men arguing that women don’t exist as an observable biological class and don’t deserve biology-based rights.

"I’ve listened as certain female celebrities insist that there isn’t the slightest risk to women and girls in allowing any man who self-identifies as a woman to enter single-sex spaces reserved for women, including changing rooms, bathrooms or rape shelters."

"Better that a hundred women who aren’t up to speed with the latest gender jargon miss public health information than that one trans-identified individual feels invalidated, seems to be the view."


Her views may be on the wrong side of the argument but they are not extreme unless the bar has been set ridiculously low.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
I've had a long phone conversation with N tonight. Alongside our discussions about the forthcoming weekend - the three of us are off on holiday, I asked her about the controversy about the Djeune et al report. I wanted to check my memory of those events. She has no doubts that the report is misread. She has no doubts that some 'academics' have been willfully misreading the report, and disgracefully willfully disregarding the efforts of Djeune to explain why they are wrong.

N made the following point, but wishes to underline her point that she is speaking from memory on the hoof on a document she has not read for some time. Also Swedish law is not a speciality for her. I scribbled the following notes:-

1) It's important to understand the selection of Djeune's chosen date range for the study 1973 to 2003 with it's necessary break point in 1989. Sweden had a mass sterilisation programme from 1941 of people in certain categories. In 1972, the programme was extended to trans people who were then considered mentally ill, a category of people already subject to sterilisation. Trans people could only seek legal recognition and protection by following the path of sterilisation and genital reassignment surgery.

2) In 1989 Swedish law changed. Those included in the mass sterilisation programme no longer included the category 'feeble-minded'.

3) In 2003 the sterilisation laws were repealed. Although considered mentally ill, trans people had been otherwise unsupported for mental health. 2003 also happened to be the year the European Court of Human Rights decided the Godwyn case which led to the UK government forced to act upon their directive which led to the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

4) It's also important to note that this study was a follow up study of trans people after reassignment surgery. The total cohort number was 324. The report was not only concerned with criminality but mortality and suicide rates.

5) When it came to the rates of reoffending, the study looked at the criminality of those of the 324 using court records. Obviously not all 324 people had prior court records for criminality. In fact 10 were identified and used in the study. Of these some were trans women and others were trans men. Of those 10 trans men and trans women there was further sub-division into a pre-1989 group and a post-1989 group.

6) N admits that from memory she is unclear on one point without referring back to the study. She is unclear if all 10 were taking replacement hormones.

7) Gender critical academics have been presenting the study as if it was a wide-ranging study. It was a study over a wide date range, however the criminality aspect was very narrow due to the small sample size.

8) The big failures in the GC considerations of the study:
a) Failure to note that this was a follow up study of 324 individuals compared with randomised control groups.
b) Failure to note that due to the nature of sex reassignment, the standard protocol of double blind is impossible, so much less reliable.
c) Failure to note that the sample size of trans women is a subset of a cohort of just 10 individuals, not the whole 324 cohort.
d) Failure to note the follow study examined the offending rate of 10 before and after surgery in the same individuals.


N's conclusion.

The gender critical claim is entirely false. Djeune was correct to explain that it was the case. The biggest takeaway to note comes from reading the purpose of the report, which was to measure the effects of sex reassignment surgery on the lives of trans individuals.

The measurement that states that there was no difference in the offending rates of the trans women cohort of the study (remember this cohort that is a subset of a cohort of 10) was a confirmation that sex reassignment surgery did not affect their own offending rates. It was not a measure of the offending rates of 324 trans women against the male population of Sweden. The number of trans men in the study is therefore also a subset of a cohort of 10, and likely to be number close to just 2 or 3. In their cases, their offending rates went up.

My scribbles from the conversation with N end there. So this is now back to blousy bird me.

I accordingly went back to the Djeune study, and sure enough, just as N had said, the pieces fell into place.

Objective​

To estimate mortality, morbidity, and criminal rate after surgical sex reassignment of transsexual persons.

Crime rate​

Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989.

My conclusion.

Gender critical people like Stock et al have mischaracterised this report willfully for their own ends. This is very unprofessional conduct for an academic.

The report does not say that all trans women are in a cohort that have offending rates similar to the general population of men.

What it does say is that in the 1973 to 1989 group of trans people in Sweden ( a subset of a subset of a total cohort of 10) who underwent compulsory sterilisation and sex reassignment surgery to obtain state recognition, those treatments did not alter their criminality.

So that's another of Aurora's bullshit stories debunked, just like the prison numbers bullshit.
 
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monkers

Legendary Member
900 pages and you've still failed to show why this special subset of men should be treated differently from other men. Other than they say so.

In 900 pages I've never said that legally male transgender prisoners should be in women's prisons.

When you bring up Karen White for example or Isla Bryson, I have never said they belong in a women's prison,

You imagine all of this because you see me as an opponent. What I do is hold you to account when you are dishonest = ie pretty much all the time.

What you attempt all the time is conflate trans women with a GRC as a problem, when there is no data to say they are.

In the MofJ numbers that you love to quote, none of them are trans women with a GRC. The Prison Service recording system filters legally male and legally female into separate categories. Trans women with a GRC are in the cohort of women, trans men with a GRC are in the cohort of men.
 

Ian H

Legendary Member
If you find this, the full quote, extreme then you must have led a very sheltered life. They are talking about strongly opposing views. Are Radcliffe, Watson etc. extreme to say they are appalled by her position? I find the views of Braverman, Badenoch, Farage and CXRAndy despicable and hope that doesn't class me as extreme.

" In truth, the condemnation of certain individuals was far less surprising to me than the fact that some of them then emailed me, or sent messages through third parties, to check that we were still friends.

The thing is, those appalled by my position often fail to grasp how truly despicable I find their
s.

I’ve watched “no debate” become the slogan of those who once posed as defenders of free speech. I’ve witnessed supposedly progressive men arguing that women don’t exist as an observable biological class and don’t deserve biology-based rights.

"I’ve listened as certain female celebrities insist that there isn’t the slightest risk to women and girls in allowing any man who self-identifies as a woman to enter single-sex spaces reserved for women, including changing rooms, bathrooms or rape shelters."

"Better that a hundred women who aren’t up to speed with the latest gender jargon miss public health information than that one trans-identified individual feels invalidated, seems to be the view."


Her views may be on the wrong side of the argument but they are not extreme unless the bar has been set ridiculously low.

Rowling is a writer. I assume she weighs her words precisely. She is expressing hatred and contempt.
 
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