Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

Maya Forstater is a tax 'expert'. Yet you agree with her! The Good Law project hires barristers to take their cases.

She's not presenting herself as knowing more about suicide than the UK government's advisor though ffs.

The Good Law Project has lost what 60% of their crowd funded cases? Perhaps they need better barristers.

The NHS concealed or at least suppressed the facts of these deaths. They knew. Cass was appointed by the NHS. Her report is widely being discredited.

Did they really? 8 clinics refused to give Cass data, so how could she hide data she didn't have? This is proper tin foil hat stuff if you think a paediatrician of Hilary Cass's standing would conceal child suicide. She had a whole team working with her so that would be quite a remarkable cover up involving dozens of people.

Who knew, you ask. Who knows now?
We do, because we have the Coroners' reports.

Children do sadly take their own lives, and their are many factors involved in that. It might be more enlightening to consider that most of the children referred to gender clinics had high levels of autism, family dysfunction, family loss or trauma, and were far mire likely to be in the care system - all of which increase suicide risk.

You need to create the idea of trans children just like you needed to create the idea of it being innate. Because otherwise people might think it's actually just mostly a fetish of adult men. 'But if kids of 5 are trans it can't just be a fetish?' is the promotion.

The creation of the concept of 'trans' children - as opposed to them just being kids who are in mental distress over various things, including their body - is there to validate adults.

As Cass found, the evidence presented by the pro trans lobby is poor quality, including that on suicide.

That you promote the 'transition or die' narrative that encourages suicidal ideation in children is absolutely abhorrent.

 

[monkers]

Exactly. There was no proposal for her to receive medication. Only to access Gender Identity services for her mental health. You are trying to relate the closure of a loophole with the very real problem of accessing appropriate mental health services. Puberty blockers are not a cure, and for most, not even a treatment.

You seem very keen on covering up these deaths Ian.

The Tavistock centre were prescribing puberty blockers. That drew criticism, including from you. The claim was that they were harmful.

The opposing view from health professionals was that the benefits and risks were assessed and balanced.

There was a single regret case taken to court - Kiera Bell. She won her case. In response the NHS clamped down on the use of puberty blockers citing the ruling.

In the appeal, the judgement was reversed. Kiera Bell lost her case. In response the NHS did not change its policy, leaving the restrictions on puberty blockers in place, despite the ruling.

Up until this point, there had been one reported case of a young person taking their own life, because despite the system being much less than good, let alone perfect, trans children were surviving.

Since the ruling, and the puberty blocker restriction being in place, 16 young people have taken their own lives in 3 years, with many more in mental health crises.

Statements like 'correlation does not prove causation' are typical of those who refuse to face up to the issues. Parents of trans children well-understood the implications of these measures for their children. Now their worse fears are being realised.

Not only are puberty blockers not available, but no other measures or therapies are put in place. There is just denial of services. The Tavistock centre is closed, the promised new facilities not materialised.

Coroners do not have the power to say 'puberty blockers should have been prescribed'. The do have the power to point out that 1023 with denial of access to services contributed to a death.

 

[monkers]

Did they really? 8 clinics refused to give Cass data, so how could she hide data she didn't have? This is proper tin foil hat stuff if you think a paediatrician of Hilary Cass's standing would conceal child suicide. She had a whole team working with her so that would be quite a remarkable cover up involving dozens of people.

The NHS had the coroners' reports.

My, my, how you service denying GCs who stomped around pretending to care about young people are engaging in truth avoidance now.

There were warnings from the parents of trans youngsters that this was going to happen. But you all thought you knew better.

And the 'social contagion' of which you loved to speak? Well the social contagion has been the hatred that you have helped to spread that has damaged innocent trans people, and quite possible led to the murder of Brianna Ghey.

 

[icowden]

You seem very keen on covering up these deaths Ian.

Nope. I'm very keen on not continuing to circulate misinformation.

The Tavistock centre were prescribing puberty blockers. That drew criticism, including from you. The claim was that they were harmful.

Yes

Since the ruling, and the puberty blocker restriction being in place, 16 young people have taken their own lives in 3 years, with many more in mental health crises.

But there have been many more differences including chronic defunding of mental health services, huge increases in waiting lists, lack of training for staff etc etc. You cannot link the change in prescribing with these suicides and to do so does a disservice to these people.

Statements like 'correlation does not prove causation' are typical of those who refuse to face up to the issues. Parents of trans children well-understood the implications of these measures for their children. Now their worse fears are being realised.

They aren't. If they are, provide any evidence that there is a causal link between prescribing and suicides. You can't because there isn't one.

Not only are puberty blockers not available, but no other measures or therapies are put in place. There is just denial of services. The Tavistock centre is closed, the promised new facilities not materialised.

Correct. I agree with you. We need more funding for mental health services, not less. We need more trained therapists, psychiatrists, psychologists etc and better access to services. This, again, has nothing to do with medication or surgery which should be an absolute last resort.

Coroners do not have the power to say 'puberty blockers should have been prescribed'. The do have the power to point out that 1023 with denial of access to services contributed to a death.

Why can't Coroners comment on medication? I'm pretty sure that they can, and do. What they can't do is make up a link that doesn't exist and cannot be proven. That would be irresponsible.

 

[icowden]

My, my, how you service denying GCs who stomped around pretending to care about young people are engaging in truth avoidance now.

You appear to be the only person avoiding the truth - which is that there is no proven link between suicides and the prescription of puberty blocking medication,

And the 'social contagion' of which you loved to speak? Well the social contagion has been the hatred that you have helped to spread that has damaged innocent trans people, and quite possible led to the murder of Brianna Ghey.

No hatred at all, as you are aware. It's this knee jerk rubbish which is contributing to the climate of fear around treatment of Gender Dysphoria and the rise in the concern that what is being done is not the best for those people to which it is being done.

 

[monkers]

But there have been many more differences including chronic defunding of mental health services, huge increases in waiting lists, lack of training for staff etc etc. You cannot link the change in prescribing with these suicides and to do so does a disservice to these people.

Yes, exactly this. However you agreed with the campaign to remove the only service available to these young people.

There are funding shortages in all public services. Is the solution to simply close them all without first putting something else in place?

This does seem to be what you are arguing.

 

[monkers]

They aren't. If they are, provide any evidence that there is a causal link between prescribing and suicides. You can't because there isn't one.

Oh reverse gear quickly found. Now apply this form of words to the prescription of puberty blockers. When you argue that principle on the attack of something you believe, and then argue the opposite when what you believed goes tits up, then your false argument is exposed.

 

[monkers]

This, again, has nothing to do with medication or surgery which should be an absolute last resort.

In your inexpert opinion. You should try having that conversation with N.

 

[monkers]

No hatred at all, as you are aware. It's this knee jerk rubbish which is contributing to the climate of fear around treatment of Gender Dysphoria and the rise in the concern that what is being done is not the best for those people to which it is being done.

Rest easy. This reply was not being made to you.

 

[monkers]

N here.

You might imagine, I wish this forum didn't exit. The spread of damaging misinformation helps neither side of this so-called 'debate', or 'discussion' as some may call it.

It is not a discussion. It reminds me of Brexit. There is the gish-galloping of various forms of deceit - which requires little effort by the culprit, and maximum effort by others to debunk it.

Monkers is naturally keen to expose the deceit that has led to harm.

The essence of my story is simply this; following 6 years of abuse perceived by the young me at the time as 'terror', I attempted suicide in order to escape from both my own sense of self, and the abuse of my parents.

To make my final escape I leapt 44 feet from a window without a care to what was below or to consequence. As it turned out I landed in wet cement and survived.

I have only survived to this day due to the love and care from one person, who has given me everything.

I have used puberty blockers. I am on cross-sex hormones for life. I am in good physical health, and good mental health. I manage this by avoiding contact with bigots. You won't find me on any social media as an active participant. I really don't want to be active here.

I survive today by avoiding contact with others outside of my work. Like so many other trans women I avoid relationships, simply because my work has taught me not to trust others with private information.

A couple of years ago my house and car were attacked in the UK. Culprits were discovered by police and arrests made. The case is ongoing.

My birth mother, who I have seen making noises on social media that she is 'grieving for her lost son' hired a private detective to trace me. She is actively gender critical on social media. Despite my absence from social media, he managed to jigsaw my identity, and gave that information to my birth mother. My birth mother gave the information of my whereabouts to what I shall call a 'trans hate' group. These thugs attacked my house at night believing that my parked car indicated that I was at home. Fortunately I wasn't. The CPS are still considering what charges can be brought and against whom.

As a consequence I no longer live in the UK. My work is in Europe. I live in stealth mode because I have to. I live in a shared house with work colleagues. This is the life I lead in order to stay safe.

Simply put Monkers saved my life. I owe her everything. It pains me to see social media posts calling people like my aunt 'groomers'. A great deal of abuse, and threats have come her way over the years. I know I can trust her to work to protect trans people from the abuses they continue to experience daily in their lives.

As a person with a long trans history, one who has suffered abuse, loss, anguish, trauma, one who has trans friends who have suffered the most awful abuse, and one who has worked in the legal system protecting human rights, I feel well-placed to say that I know that available trans health support is vital.

The UK has been targeted by groups with determination to destroy the things that protected us from harm, including healthcare, our legal rights protections, and society at large. No stone has been left unturned in the pursuit of exclusion, and now with state level reinforcement, we are on the path to eugenics.

One most vocal campaigner, has recently been calling for landlords to evict tenants who happen to be trans, whether their rent is paid or not, and for employers to fire employees who happen to be trans without cause or reason.

We ask where the abuse will end, and when it will end. We fear that it never will. All that I can ask is that you refuse to be complicit.

 

[icowden]

Oh reverse gear quickly found. Now apply this form of words to the prescription of puberty blockers. When you argue that principle on the attack of something you believe, and then argue the opposite when what you believed goes tits up, then your false argument is exposed.

I think we may be at cross purposes. You have been strongly arguing that the deaths of 16 people since the ban on prescribing puberty blockers are directly linked. I have been arguing that there is no such link. I have not reversed gear.

Those deaths are far more likely to be linked in the decline in mental health services and the huge increase in waiting lists than they are to prescribing medication.

 

[monkers]

I think we may be at cross purposes. You have been strongly arguing that the deaths of 16 people since the ban on prescribing puberty blockers are directly linked. I have been arguing that there is no such link. I have not reversed gear.

There are two things about this. I have not used the words 'directly linked'. What I have provided is the data, and a few of the coroners' reports.

I had hoped that would cause pause for thought. N observes that ''defence of observable harm implies complicity with that harm''.

You have advanced your own opinions about puberty blockers on the basis of, and to paraphrase 'not enough evidence to prove they are safe'.

You are now advancing the opinion, and again to paraphrase, 'not enough evidence to say withdrawal is causation'.

Where is the evidence that in the analysis of potential benefit balanced against potential harm, that puberty blockers should not be used?

Ah yes, 16 dead young people, 16 inquests, 16 coroners' reports, 16 mourning families saying that death followed gender affirming care being withdrawn. Let's deny the possibility of causal link, because that would be embarrassing after calling for treatment to be withdrawn.

Don't worry Ian, I see you.

 

[icowden]

Ah yes, 16 dead young people, 16 inquests, 16 coroners' reports, 16 mourning families saying that death followed gender affirming care being withdrawn. Let's deny the possibility of causal link, because that would be embarrassing after calling for treatment to be withdrawn.

They didn't say that at all. Most of the inquests you posted were about inability to access the service in the first place.
Let's not try to create a causal link when there isn't one because that would be rank stupidity.

 

[monkers]

They didn't say that at all. Most of the inquests you posted were about inability to access the service in the first place.
Let's not try to create a causal link when there isn't one because that would be rank stupidity.

Sure what we need is for the NHS to appoint another expert to carry out an investigation so that in 5 years time we know why another 50 young people took their lives.

It's time to end all this 'let's wait and see', 'it's only three months' nonsense. You know full well, that in another three months time there will still be no health provision for young trans people. This is shameful.

N is right, you are complicit.

 

[Deleted member 159]

How to believe

Cass or monkers?