Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

So what. No prison is a 100% safe space. Women's prisons are where we put criminal women. Where else would they go?
Men's prisons are where we put criminal men.

Where people go is determined by risk assessment regardless of sex. If I were to ask you for the list of offences of trans women against women in HMP Downview, I suppose you are able to provide a list?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Being of the male sex is a relevant risk factor, arguably the greatest risk factor statistically. That's why they did away with mixed sex prisons 200 years ago. I don't need to know their crimes either, only that they are male.
If the crimes of these men was the main relevant issue we would put other non violent men who had committed low level crimes in women's prisons. We don't.

 

[monkers]

Being of the male sex is a relevant risk factor, arguably the greatest risk factor statistically. That's why they did away with mixed sex prisons 200 years ago. I don't need to know their crimes either, only that they are male.
If the crimes of these men was the main relevant issue we would put other non violent men who had committed low level crimes in women's prisons. We don't.

That is just bias and not how the law functions. A statement like that will have you quickly removed from any jury.

 

[AuroraSaab]

This is a forum not a jury. If the crime committed was the most relevant factor, not sex, there would be no reason why a male very low risk, minor offender wouldn't be placed in a women's jail. They aren't though because we all know why certain circumstances require separation by sex. You can pretend you don't know this or pretend these men are harmless or low risk. The fact is they are men and as such should be accommodated in the male estate, in their own wing if considered too vulnerable for the male general population.

 

[monkers]

You can pretend you don't know this or pretend these men are harmless or low risk.

There is the same untruth for a second time now. Even within the space of a forum, if one makes a claim, then one is obliged to substantiate it. You can not substantiate any of this. Your position is one of bias and bluster - nothing else.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You persist in trying to argue these ridiculous positions - that there's a special subset of men who should be allowed into women's jails and women's sports when other men aren't - because you know that if they can be admitted in jails and sports it would be harder to maintain other exclusions. Conversely, if they aren't women here they aren't women anywhere. Your entire argument on these issues is disingenuous.

 

[monkers]

You persist in trying to argue these ridiculous positions - that there's a special subset of men who should be allowed into women's jails and women's sports when other men aren't - because you know that if they can be admitted in jails and sports it would be harder to maintain other exclusions. Conversely, if they aren't women here they aren't women anywhere. Your entire argument on these issues is disingenuous.

I persist in telling the truth - that is what you don't like. I also persist in pointing out when you are not - which is often.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You're the one saying the men on E wing don't get to mix with female prisoners when they do, and as the policy document shows that was the intention from the start. The claim that there are a special subset of men who are magically somehow different from other men is the lie on which your whole case rests. Increasingly people are seeing how ridiculous that notion is.

 

[monkers]

You're the one saying the men on E wing don't get to mix with female prisoners when they do, and as the policy document shows that was the intention from the start. The claim that there are a special subset of men who are magically somehow different from other men is the lie on which your whole case rests. Increasingly people are seeing how ridiculous that notion is.

MP Rebecca Paul claimed that the trans prisoners mingle freely with other prisoners. I said ...

This is false information / misinformation. There is a possible mix of transgender women and trans women prisoners at this prison, however they are held in E wing, a separate part of the prison where prisoners are free to mingle with each other, but not other prisoners in other parts of the prison.

I then said you should read the inspection reports. If you had read those carefully you would have found that E wing prisoners do not ''mingle freely' with the other prisoners. While some E wing prisoners do attend some shared education and other sessions, they are reported to be carefully supervised.

You were asked to provide examples of E wing prisoners offending against other prisoners, but you were unable to provide a single example. There is plenty of evidence of there being other high risk women in HMP Downview, with a significant number serving 10 year plus sentences mingling freely harming prisoners and staff. This is all reported in the Inspection reports. But no, none of the truth fits your skewed narrative.

 

[mickle]

Your posting history shows this is too complex for you - best leave it to adults.

Go on. Go on. Please tell me.

 

[icowden]

You persist in trying to argue these ridiculous positions - that there's a special subset of men who should be allowed into women's jails and women's sports when other men aren't - because you know that if they can be admitted in jails and sports it would be harder to maintain other exclusions.

I actually can't see anywhere where N has argued that. They have consistently tried to show you that your assertions are incorrect about the way the law is applied and how decisions are made about who goes to which prison.

 

[icowden]

Go on. Go on. Please tell me.

If you look back through the thread, N answered the question previously, because I asked it.
My understanding is that

Transgender is when you truly wish to become a different gender and may move on to physical transitioning.

Transwomen also includes those the wider group of men who adopt a female persona or identity but who do not want to permanently live as the other gender.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I then said you should read the inspection reports. If you had read those carefully you would have found that E wing prisoners do not ''mingle freely' with the other prisoners. While some E wing prisoners do attend some shared education and other sessions, they are reported to be carefully supervised.

They mix with female prisoners under supervision - I never claimed otherwise.

You were asked to provide examples of E wing prisoners offending against other prisoners, but you were unable to provide a single example.

Such information isn't available to the general public as you know. The onus is on you to evidence why these men are different from other men and should be given preferential treatment that other men don't get.

There is plenty of evidence of there being other high risk women in HMP Downview, with a significant number serving 10 year plus sentences mingling freely harming prisoners and staff. This is all reported in the Inspection reports. But no, none of the truth fits your skewed narrative.

So what? They are women. A women's prison is the appropriate place for them. Where else would they go? Male prisoners - all of them - can similarly be accommodated in the male estate. That some women are serving long sentences isn't justification for introducing men into the mix. Of course your argument here only applies to the special men, doesn't it, not any old male prisoner. It's just for the special ones.

 

[CXRAndy]

I persist in telling the truth - that is what you don't like. I also persist in pointing out when you are not - which is often.

Is a trans woman a real biological woman, or a male pretending to be female?

 

[AuroraSaab]

I actually can't see anywhere where N has argued that. They have consistently tried to show you that your assertions are incorrect about the way the law is applied and how decisions are made about who goes to which prison.

On what basis is it being argued that these men should be in women's jails then? I haven't seen anyone say that any man should go to a women's jail if they want, only the magically special subset.

This whole thread is epic gaslighting. Endless arguing for these men to have special treatment in every area and then the pretence that this isn't being argued for at all.