Gulf War No.37: Iranistan

[Dorset Boy]

...and the solution is to bomb them?

I'm surprised by your pacifist stance, Not necessarily in respect to this conflict which was almost certainly illegally started by Trump, but how do you think Ukraine should be dealing with the invasion by russia? or going back further, the Balkan wars, or Hitler's Germany?
Was sitting round a table with the aggressor ever going to work in those conflicts?

 

[C R]

A couple of posters seem to be making out Iran to be a lovely state, that cares about it's citizens and also its neighbours.
Really?

No, that's not what we are saying.

 

[C R]

I'm surprised by your pacifist stance, Not necessarily in respect to this conflict which was almost certainly illegally started by Trump, but how do you think Ukraine should be dealing with the invasion by russia? or going back further, the Balkan wars, or Hitler's Germany?
Was sitting round a table with the aggressor ever going to work in those conflicts?

Eh?

 

[PurplePenguin]

I don’t disagree with your assertion that Iranians are a sophisticated society. They have a high pedigree in literature, arts, cuisine and pluralism.

Persian culture has greatly shaped Afghanistan, Pakistan and North India. So, your assertion that Iran is not like the other two is incorrect.

Where you are correct, is that Iran has less in common with the Arabs. A shared religion aside, Iranians view Arabs as distinctively different.

Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan have all suffered terribly in the last 40+ years due to the same/overlapping geopolitical factors. The increasing Islamification of these countries, a regressive step, was a response to external forces.

In the Wakhan Valley there is a market held each week in no mans land on an island in the river that divides Tajikistan and Afghanistan. It's attended by people from both countries. They speak the same language, have many of the same ancestors and share a common history that goes back centuries. Today, though, they have very little in common in day to day life. One side changed a lot under the Soviet Union.

Sure, Farsi is like Hindi/Urdu, but when you cross the border from Iran to Pakistan, it's almost impossible to describe the extent of the cultural change.

 

[PurplePenguin]

Eh?

It's the reason I rarely post on the subject. The nuance that it is possible to enjoy Disney Land, but disagree with Guantanamo Bay always seems to get lost.

 

[C R]

In the Wakhan Valley there is a market held each week in no mans land on an island in the river that divides Tajikistan and Afghanistan. It's attended by people from both countries. They speak the same language, have many of the same ancestors and share a common history that goes back centuries. Today, though, they have very little in common in day to day life. One side changed a lot under the Soviet Union.

Sure, Farsi is like Hindi/Urdu, but when you cross the border from Iran to Pakistan, it's almost impossible to describe the extent of the cultural change.

As I said, watch The Separation or The Salesman if you want to see what Iranian society is, not what the mullahs would like it to be. Note that both movies are actually very critical of Iranian society, and neither of them are an easy watch.

 

[Pblakeney]

I'm surprised by your pacifist stance, Not necessarily in respect to this conflict which was almost certainly illegally started by Trump, but how do you think Ukraine should be dealing with the invasion by russia? or going back further, the Balkan wars, or Hitler's Germany?
Was sitting round a table with the aggressor ever going to work in those conflicts?

What is the objective of these strikes? It is not defensive in any form.
Talks were on-going and making progress, right up until the missiles started flying into Iran.

After a few days contemplation I am convinced this is an Israel driven, US supported, religious war. All other reasons to date are provably false.

 

[Moodyman]

The shared cultural basis with Pakistan and Afghanistan is true. But, socially, both Pakistan and Afghanistan are islamic fundamentalist societies, Iran isn't, much to the chagrin of the mullahs.

Islamic fundamentalist! WTF does that mean? It’s just another made up abstract term by Western policymakers.

In the modern world, there a two instruments used by the ruling classes to keep everyone in check and create consensus.

In the West, it’s the flag (Nationalism). We can thank France for creating the modern nation state. Examples of Nationalism and its destruction are all around us. You only have visit the war graves in Northern France and Belgium,

In the East, it is the tribe.

So, what do you do in places like Afghanistan, Iran or Pakistan where there are multiple tribes under an artificially created entity (the nation state)? You find a common identifier and promote that as the glue that holds society together. Khomeni did it in Iran, Zia in Pakistan and the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. Explore the culture of these countries prior to the events of the late 70s and 80s. They were were liberal and progressive.

So, those three countries are not different from each other.

 

[briantrumpet]

What is the objective of these strikes? It is not defensive in any form.
Talks were on-going and making progress, right up until the missiles started flying into Iran.

After a few days contemplation I am convinced this is an Israel driven, US supported, religious war. All other reasons to date are provably false.

I didn't read any of your posts as being illogically pacifist, but rather suggesting that avoiding wars is better than starting them. That doesn't mean to say that Ukraine should roll over once invaded.

 

[Dorset Boy]

What is the objective of these strikes? It is not defensive in any form.
Talks were on-going and making progress, right up until the missiles started flying into Iran.

After a few days contemplation I am convinced this is an Israel driven, US supported, religious war. All other reasons to date are provably false.

But you said bombs etc are never the way to resolve conflicts. You didn't give the impression you were only talking about the Iran situation as it was last week.

I'm certainly not in favour of Trump trying to start WW3 with this conflict and am glad that Starmer is acting the way he is for example given where we are now.

 

[Dorset Boy]

No. It isn't.
I guess we will never agree on this.

This was PB's reply to AurorasSaab's post below​

Sometimes the solution really is bombs (or trebuchets/warships/armies/ invasion/other armament of choice) though isn't it? Whether it is the long term solution to Iran's oppressive regime is a different question.

Hence questioning the pacifist stance

 

[briantrumpet]

We can thank France for creating the modern nation state.

I don't know if that's wholly true (were there not nation states before?), but they *did* enforce the idea of France as a single entity through its school system, which was expressly set up to kill off the regional languages (Breton, Occitan etc.). The 'success' of that push was that over two generations the regional languages were so sidelined that grandparents could often only communicate to their grandchildren through the middle generation, which could speak both languages.

The glorifying of flags and the amplification of differences between nations has not been conducive to peaceful co-existence.

 

[C R]

Islamic fundamentalist! WTF does that mean? It’s just another made up abstract term by Western policymakers.

In the modern world, there a two instruments used by the ruling classes to keep everyone in check and create consensus.

In the West, it’s the flag (Nationalism). We can thank France for creating the modern nation state. Examples of Nationalism and its destruction are all around us. You only have visit the war graves in Northern France and Belgium,

In the East, it is the tribe.

So, what do you do in places like Afghanistan, Iran or Pakistan where there are multiple tribes under an artificially created entity (the nation state)? You find a common identifier and promote that as the glue that holds society together. Khomeni did it in Iran, Zia in Pakistan and the Mujahideen in Afghanistan.

So, those three countries are not different from each other.

Iran is not a made up country like Pakistan. Khomeini didn't unify de country in any sense because it didn't need unifying. The Persian traditions like Norooz and Yalda, and others are shared across ethnic and religious groups, that shared culture is what unifies the country and existed long before islam. The mullahs actually actively try to discourage those traditions.

Regarding islamic fundamentalist society, in Pakistan seems to be trivial to whip up a mob with accusations of blasphemy, in Iran you'd get a meh, can I join in (the blasphemy).

 

[AuroraSaab]

...and the solution is to bomb them?

I don't know what the outcome of the escalation is going to be. I do know Iran has made no moves towards being less oppressive towards their own population so far, and seems intent on being a malign influence elsewhere. Whether regime change comes about or not, and what that results in, the current government isn't going to abandon radical fundamentalist Islam of its own accord.

 

[Dorset Boy]

Iran is not a made up country like Pakistan. Khomeini didn't unify de country in any sense because it didn't need unifying. The Persian traditions like Norooz and Yalda, and others are shared across ethnic and religious groups, that shared culture is what unifies the country and existed long before islam. The mullahs actually actively try to discourage those traditions.

Regarding islamic fundamentalist society, in Pakistan seems to be trivial to whip up a mob with accusations of blasphemy, in Iran you'd get a meh, can I join in (the blasphemy).

But the Fatwah against Rushdie came from the Iranians...
On February 14, 1989, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini issued a fatwa (religious decree) ordering the death of British author Salman Rushdie and his publishers, following accusations that his novel, The Satanic Verses, was blasphemous against Islam.