Israel / Palestine

[AndyRM]

Classic Sealioning.

I suspect we shall resume in an hour...

 

[theclaud]

Sorry for bullying the genocide both-sidesers, peeps! What a big meanie. Must be a terrible thing to go through, being called a halfwit on the internet, just for arguing that one should empathise with the practice of deliberately burning people alive in hospital tents.

 

[AndyRM]

Sorry for bullying the genocide both-sidesers, peeps! What a big meanie. Must be a terrible thing to go through, being called a halfwit on the internet, just for arguing that one should empathise with the practice of deliberately burning people alive in hospital tents.

This seems incredibly disingenuous. Can you clarify what you actually mean by "sorry"?

 

[theclaud]

This, of course, is all it's ever been about.


View: https://x.com/Channel4News/status/1848443381397262372

 

[winjim]

Reshit has come with her friends. She is the daughter of an Israeli soldier who spent months in Gaza and is now fighting in Lebanon. She is friendly, open, eloquent and utterly sure of herself.

So why would you want to live in Gaza?

"Because it's our homeland," she replies. "It says in the Torah that this is our home, this is our land, and we have every right to live there.

"So many soldiers have died in this. We have to keep doing what they started. They died for a reason. They started something. And I think it's our duty for them and for their families to actually keep doing what they started.

"They sacrificed themselves for something so we have to sacrifice ourselves for that thing also."

What, I ask, about the Palestinians who already live in Gaza? What should happen to them? She doesn't miss a beat.

"We should kill them, every last one of them. And if the government won't do that then we should just kick them out. This is our land. And we deserve it."

I don't want to speak for or over any actual Jewish people and obviously this doesn't apply to all Jews but:

My wife went to a Jewish school and says the level of indoctrination of these kids is wild. They really do believe this stuff about being the chosen people with the promised land. It's evident in things like how the boys behave towards Jewish and non-Jewish girls. And they're taught victimhood from a young age, the school always on high security alert because they think they're about to be bombed by Palestinians.

This is in a fairly middle class suburb of Liverpool, I dread to think what it's like in Israel.

Free Palestine

 

[theclaud]

Where have we seen scenes like this before?


View: https://x.com/AJEnglish/status/1848023872706400493


The Serbs claimed it was "retaliation" too. Presumably Aurora was on hand to ask what detailed alternatives Bosniaks were proposing to being shot in the head and dumped in a big hole in the ground.

 

[monkers]

You can continue to behave like playground bully and try to silence anyone who may have a different view to you, but your hatred for Israel and your desire to see the state removed from existence puts you firmly in the category of being part of the problem.


You think I am a halfwit because I can see wrong by both sides. You think I am a halfwit because I want a peaceful future for the region


Perhaps I'm a halfwit because I am engaging in dialogue without resorting to your tactics of bullying harassment and insults for those who do not agree with you

Given your own behaviour, I'm beginning to think you are the ''playground bully'', and that ''halfwit'' was an overly generous assessment.

Your repeated assessment of equally to blame is rhetorical nonsense of course. The situation is asymmetric and as I am given to understand it not a war but a genocide.

I am not legally trained, but as I understand it, a war is a dispute between two states.

Every country has 'the right to defend itself' as everybody knows, and the first duty of any state is to protect itself. Palestine has not been recognised as a member state of the United States [edit: I obvioulsy had meant to type United Nations] despite application because Israel's best friend the USA always uses its veto to block it.
Therefore it has no legal power to defend itself. Israel has been able to exploit this, effectively cage Palestinians while treating them like vermin.

When they push back against these conditions, you feel they are ''equally to blame''. Now Israeli terrorism becomes the genocide of a people. When neighbouring countries looking on feel compelled to support them, Israel attacks them too.

Israel has more than the means to defend itself, it is going beyond, and not by some small margin.

I think @theclaud and others are correct in their assessments. I think that Macron is quite correct and rather brave in the face of opponents in the international community for calling them out. I wish the UK would fully support him.

Those who say that Israel have the right to defend themselves, supplying them with military equipment, providing Israel with political support are not being neutral or even-handed; they are playing politics as they have long done.

The notions of a two state solution or similar solution is dead. The attacks on civilian populations, and on peacekeeping forces are unforgiveable.

As for the USA, how can we remain besties with such a state when the international community can not anticipate that they will act in good faith for peace whether they be governed by democrats or republicans.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Israel - the whole idea of Israel - is over.

Absolute BS, other than as an example of the wishful thinking I wrote about earlier.
Israel will definitely continue to exist, but without the level of support, or benefit of the doubt, it has benefitted from until now…until even that begins to come back in time.
Other countries and governments have done as evil things as Israel in the past but still exist…and are recognised by, and have a vote at, the UN.
Impotent outrage from the margins is understandable but changes nothing in this nasty world where self-interest rules. The reality is that the US and the actions of other Middle East nations will decide the outcomes, not outrage from the margins.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Thanks, Claude. You've given a clear and specific picture of what you mean by a free Palestine.

 

[spen666]

Given your own behaviour, I'm beginning to think you are the ''playground bully'', and that ''halfwit'' was an overly generous assessment.

Your repeated assessment of equally to blame is rhetorical nonsense of course. The situation is asymmetric and as I am given to understand it not a war but a genocide.

I have not tried to compare the wrong doing, other than to say both parties are in the wrong

Are you suggesting the October the 7th Massacre was not wrong?

Are you suggesting the raising of large parts of Gaza by Israel is wrong

Thus my point that both parties are guilty of wrongdoing is made out.



You may want to try to equate one wrong against another, I don't

I am not legally trained, but as I understand it, a war is a dispute between two states.

This is nothing to do with legal definitions, it is to do with trying to find a peaceful solution for all sides

Take a step back from the rhetoric of hate and look for the solutions .
Israel is not going to be wiped out. That is genocide and that is wrong. The Palestinians being wiped out is genocide and is wrong.

Advocating for the wiping out of one of the two sides is simply wrong and not going to happen


There is a saying about 2 wrongs not making a right.

 

[Ian H]

This is from 2018.

It is hard to believe that anyone can simply put the blame on the Palestinian side for the mass killings of unarmed protesters by Israeli snipers. How is it the Palestinian fault for being shot. There is no report of a single Israeli soldier or civilian being hurt, yet the Israeli, and even American officials, repeat the very same argument. This reminds us of what Israeli prime minister Golda Meir once said, that she will never “forgive them [ the Palestinians] for having forced us to kill their sons
https://jordantimes.com/opinion/daoud-kuttab/blaming-victim

 

[monkers]

Thus my point that both parties are guilty of wrongdoing is made out.

It really isn't.

Suggest a way that Palestinian people could have ended their oppression lawfully.

 

[spen666]

It really isn't.

So are you saying the murder of civilians by Hamas on 7th October was not wrong

Or are you saying the response of Israel was not wrong?
Which of these 2 actions was not wrong? Because if you agree they are both wrong, then my point is correct

 

[monkers]

So are you saying the murder of civilians by Hamas on 7th October was not wrong

Or are you saying the response of Israel was not wrong?
Which of these 2 actions was not wrong? Because if you agree they are both wrong, then my point is correct

I'm not a simpleton @spen666. I can not be goaded into making a one-sided judgement to a logical fallacy - try a reform voter instead.

 

[monkers]

So are you saying the murder of civilians by Hamas on 7th October was not wrong

Or are you saying the response of Israel was not wrong?
Which of these 2 actions was not wrong? Because if you agree they are both wrong, then my point is correct

Let's try to agree to attempt to a question without a false dichotomy shall we? Will you agree that all human beings have the right to self-determination?