spen666
Well-Known Member
You can't bring yourself to condemn the October the 7th Massacre? Or is it you can't condemn the Israeli response?
Its not hard to condemn both sides for their actions.
Israel / Palestine
- Thread starter Beebo
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You can't bring yourself to condemn the October the 7th Massacre? Or is it you can't condemn the Israeli response?
Its not hard to condemn both sides for their actions.
Ian H
Legendary Member
Why are you ignoring the decades-long historical oppression, dispossession, harassment and killing of the Palestinians? Would you have dismissed the oppression in apartheid South Africa in the same way?
Netanyahu claimed to have nurtured Hamas so that he could argue that there was no unified Palestinian authority to negotiate with. He knew what they were like.
monkers
Legendary Member
It is hard for me yes, because it is a dim-witted argument. I have answered your questions in my own way.
I've asked you two questions which you have ignored, and therefore seemingly refused.
I'll try again -
What legal available courses of action are available to Palestinians to end their oppression by Israel?
Under the UNDHR are all people entitled to the human right of self-determination?
matticus
Guru
Ian, my dear chap - have you actually read the text you are replying to? I'll give you a hand and put some yellow highlight on:
Attachments
monkers
Legendary Member
With due respect my dear Matticus, you appear not to have noticed the point.
spen666
Well-Known Member
I'm not ignoring anything. I am saying both sides are in the wrong in their actions
Its not about trying to prove this murder is worse than that murder or who has committed the more heinous acts,
That is just the mentality that causes this tragedy to continue.
spen666
Well-Known Member
Is that the pot calling?
monkers
Legendary Member
I'm not suggesting you are black!
What I am doing is suggesting that you are being disingenuous by asking questions that defy logic.
Your dichotomy is false. Here's why. The conflict between Hamas and Israel did not begin with violence on one date in October. Neither has it come to an end.
The is no symmetry. One has UN recognition of being a state, the other hasn't despite 75% of UN members recognising Palestine as a state. One is funded by the west and given hi grade weapons to fund a proxy war for the Americans and others, and one is not.
To follow your line is to agree that the conflict began with an innocent Israel being attacked by a belligerent Palestinian group, and that Israel may have acted a bit disproportionately in response. This is no way reflects the true situation or the scale of the horrors.
What it seems to reflect is your support of Israel, though you dress it as though you are neutral. It seems other posters here recognise that too.
Now please answer the questions.
Do you recognise that Palestinian people have equal rights to people living in Israel under the UNDHR? Please note that a response such as ''the UNDHR is a useless piece of paper'' is not an acceptable answer.
State the legal routes that Palestinian people can exercise self-determination and justice in human rights without resorting to violence.
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spen666
Well-Known Member
You are making up things I am not saying to avoid answering the question.
I have said simply both sides have acted wrongly and invited you to agree both sides have acted wrongly.
I am not trying to compare one crime to another. I am simply saying both a committing crimes. Nothing more and nothing less.
For some strange reason you cannot bring yourself to agree that both the massacre on 7 October by Palestinians and the subsequent actions by Israel are wrong.
monkers
Legendary Member
It's no good, it's not working. I'm not buying it.
As a general principle violence is wrong, because reason is right. In the case of Israel, they are the absolutists. It is impossible to reason with absolutists.
Oppression must end by any means. If reason becomes unsuccessful, then the oppressed must be understood when they takes measures of last resort.
matticus
Guru
It's quite clear; there, in plain English!
monkers
Legendary Member
It's in plain English, that @spen666 wants us to ignore full context. While presenting the events on a certain day as the Palestinians as the aggressors with an innocent Israel responding to that violence, it willfully ignores the history of oppression. Ignoring the context is not putting it there in plain English, it's taking a one-sided view.
matticus
Guru
As you/we/all know full well, there is a lot more "context" than the last 12-13 months. AS SPEN SAID, bad things have been done by both sides. (not to mention the various stirrers throwing stuff in).
You are one of many people here trying to say "Israel is worser!!!" It doesn't matter. And if you do take the history as a whole you will NEVER be able to judge the various factors and come up with a final tally.
The conflict IS assymetric. In many many ways.
monkers
Legendary Member
He addressed specific loaded questions to me. He hectored me to give the answer he wanted. He isn't getting it unless or until he can say what legal routes have been available to the Palestinian people to end the oppression and genocide. He seems reluctant to provide an answer. When he provides details of how they could end the oppression without a last resort of violence, then, and only then will I condemn the violence of the Palestinians. Meanwhile it is easy to condemn the violence of Israel, because they sum their violence to their oppression of Palestinians.