Israel / Palestine

[glasgowcyclist]

Just as those flags where conveniently placed

Wait.

Are you suggesting that the flag which the thugs were filmed tearing down in this screenshot was placed there for them coming?

 

[Psamathe]

...
the claim is that one taxi was attacked by Macabi supporters, who told them off for removing a flag. Even if true, this whole topic is full off loads of people thinking Isreal overreacts, i would call a group of taxi drivers randomly attacking a group for alleged actions on a college also a overreaction but maybe that's just me.

To me you are playing a zero-sum-game. I don't think people are suggesting that one "side" is right just because the other "side" is wrong.

In the heat of events, where word is being passed through various offended parties by indirect means to expect a "balanced reaction" is just not going to happen.

But had the Israeli football supporters not torn down and burned a Palestinian flag, had the Israeli football supporters not been shouting “olé, olé, let the IDF [Israel Defense Forces] win, we will fark the Arabs”, had the Israeli football supporters not attacked a cab, would the subsequent events have happened?

Was the behaviour of the Israeli supporters reasonable in the current climate created by world events?

I've not been to Amsterdam for a few years but used to live not far away (in Hilversum) and back then Amsterdam had a fairly high Muslim population (from memory around 10% of city population but "don't quote me on that"). What is going on in Gaza and Lebanon is imensly important, particularly so to muslims so for a group to think they can walk around a foreign city shouting "let the IDF [Israel Defense Forces] win, we will fark the Arabs" and burning a Palestinian flag is just inviting what then went on to happen. Some might think behaviour designed to cause subsequent events.

Ian

 

[C R]

To me you are playing a zero-sum-game. I don't think people are suggesting that one "side" is right just because the other "side" is wrong.

In the heat of events, where word is being passed through various offended parties by indirect means to expect a "balanced reaction" is just not going to happen.

But had the Israeli football supporters not torn down and burned a Palestinian flag, had the Israeli football supporters not been shouting “olé, olé, let the IDF [Israel Defense Forces] win, we will fark the Arabs”, had the Israeli football supporters not attacked a cab, would the subsequent events have happened?

Was the behaviour of the Israeli supporters reasonable in the current climate created by world events?

I've not been to Amsterdam for a few years but used to live not far away (in Hilversum) and back then Amsterdam had a fairly high Muslim population (from memory around 10% of city population but "don't quote me on that"). What is going on in Gaza and Lebanon is imensly important, particularly so to muslims so for a group to think they can walk around a foreign city shouting "let the IDF [Israel Defense Forces] win, we will fark the Arabs" and burning a Palestinian flag is just inviting what then went on to happen. Some might think behaviour designed to cause subsequent events.

Ian

And to compound the issue, none of the violent Israeli hooligans were arrested, let alone charged for anything, whereas I understand scores from the other side were. Talk about two tier policing.

 

[monkers]

There is a rewriting of meaning of antisemitism. In fact this is evident in the legal definition in the UK.

In the UK we use this definition of hate crime in general:

Hate crimes and incidents are taken to mean any crime or incident where the perpetrator’s hostility or prejudice against an identifiable group of people is a factor in determining who is victimised.

Specifically antisemitism is defined as:

Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.

Note that Arabs are Semite peoples and excluded from the definition in such a way that it becomes possible to read that under British law that some Arab peoples are antisemitic since they express hatred of Jews.

This is can be seen as favourable treatment of one side. This favourable treatment is further seen in the claim that Israel regardless of what atrocities that it commits, is justified as 'Israel has a right to defend itself'. Whereas any opponent to Israel becomes a proscribed group i.e. terrorists.

Now that the UN has issued arrest warrants, and the government has said that they will exercise that duty if the opportunity presents, will it either make the state of Israel a proscribed group, or remove that status from their opponents?

I think I know the answer, but I'm all ears.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

I rode a couple of thousand miles through Spain this summer and in every city there were Palestinian flags draped from windows. I don't think it was to provoke maccabi fans, maybe that's just a Dutch thing.

No but as i dutch person i read dutch and poeple who actually live there say more flags appeared before this game.

Anyhow keep it up @dutchguylivingintheuk, what excuse for this?

Verified social media videos show Maccabi fans setting off flares and fireworks, chanting in Hebrew “olé, olé, let the IDF [Israel Defense Forces] win, we will fark the Arabs”, and declaring that there were “no children” left in Gaza.

Just bantz? Guys having a laugh?

Why would i make excuses for others stupid behavoir? I already said they where no angels, i condemned violence's on their part what more do you want? but it does not change anything about all other things that have happened you already tried to frame a small group of ''ultras'' as all Maccabi fans, posting a video does not change the argument.

Wait.

Are you suggesting that the flag which the thugs were filmed tearing down in this screenshot was placed there for them coming?

View attachment 6905

no, i said there are multiple reports of more flags being added right before the game.

To me you are playing a zero-sum-game. I don't think people are suggesting that one "side" is right just because the other "side" is wrong.

Agreed, both side have their lunatics however for some reason some over here see the precedence or notion that those Isreali fans might be lets say ''not very friendly'' as an excuse for them to be targeted because they are primarly jewish, Just like in Germany roughly 80 years back. Despite the decision to target them was first seen at least a week before the game. (i use seen here because most if it is in closed appgroups etc.)

In the heat of events, where word is being passed through various offended parties by indirect means to expect a "balanced reaction" is just not going to happen.

Yes agreed but in this case the balance was already oof to begin with. The Ultra's of Ajax already announced anyone protesting in front off the ArenA would be ''removed'' bij them. (but before that happened the major forbid any pro palestinian protest. but there was no balance to begin with.

But had the Israeli football supporters not torn down and burned a Palestinian flag, had the Israeli football supporters not been shouting “olé, olé, let the IDF [Israel Defense Forces] win, we will fark the Arabs”, had the Israeli football supporters not attacked a cab, would the subsequent events have happened?.

Considering this confrontation was long anticipated, i don't believe the attack on the taxi or desctruction of flags was the trigger it was the excuse.

Was the behaviour of the Israeli supporters reasonable in the current climate created by world events?

football supporters and reasonable in one sentence seems a bit off to be honest.

I've not been to Amsterdam for a few years but used to live not far away (in Hilversum) and back then Amsterdam had a fairly high Muslim population (from memory around 10% of city population but "don't quote me on that"). What is going on in Gaza and Lebanon is imensly important, particularly so to muslims so for a group to think they can walk around a foreign city shouting "let the IDF [Israel Defense Forces] win, we will fark the Arabs" and burning a Palestinian flag is just inviting what then went on to happen. Some might think behaviour designed to cause subsequent events.

Ian

Yes and this was to be expected(some kind of confrontation i mean) and this has happened before, so it does look really bad on the major of Amsterdam, they should have cancelled the game or not allow supporters from Maccabi on the other hand, now the whole world has seen how openly gay/trans etc. people feel like in Amsterdam these days.(although they generally don't destroy/shout or do anything to be targeted)

And to compound the issue, none of the violent Israeli hooligans were arrested, let alone charged for anything, whereas I understand scores from the other side were. Talk about two tier policing.

The endlessly shared media coverage clearly states 10 of the isreali persons where arrested. Unless you somehow seem to know these where not violent, you're wrong. Talking about misinformation

 

[bobzmyunkle]

so it does look really bad on the major of Amsterdam, they should have cancelled the game or not allow supporters from Maccabi

It should never have even got to that. Israeli sports team should be subject to similar sanctions to Russian.

 

[C R]

The endlessly shared media coverage clearly states 10 of the isreali persons where arrested. Unless you somehow seem to know these where not violent, you're wrong. Talking about misinformation

Can you provide any links to those arrests being reported? I can't find any.

 

[All uphill]

Do you have a link to this please? The actual complete police statement that is.
It seems somewhat implausible for too many reasons to enumerate here.

Can you provide any links to those arrests being reported? I can't find any.

I've been reading Dutch media and can't find them either.

Maybe @dutchguylivingintheuk has them from chatter on the Web.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

no, i said there are multiple reports of more flags being added right before the game.

You didn’t. I quoted what you said, which was that the flags had been conveniently placed there.

The one I showed you in my reply wasn’t conveniently placed. It’s been there for over a year and can be seen in the same spot on Google street view long before the Israeli thugs visited.

And if people hung flags prior to the date of the game, so what? Israelis can’t keep blaming others for their own crimes, even if it’s what they’re used to getting away with.

 

[Psamathe]

...i said there are multiple reports of more flags being added right before the game.

Commentary from many UK reporters based in Israel is that Israeli media are not publicising the plight of Palestinian civilians in Gaza, so much of the Israeli population is in an echo chamber fairly unaware of atrocities and probable war crimes.

So adding a few flags to demonstrate local opinion seems a reasonable and peaceful way to highlight issues and local sentiment. Nothing that should provoke flag burning, attacking a taxi, "we will fark the Arabs", etc.

From reports I've seen I suspect the Israeli football fans provoked exactly what they intended.

Ian

 

[Rusty Nails]

I think it is probably true that football ultras/thugs represent the worst of the country they come from. What else would anyone expect from Israeli football ultras/thugs at this time.

 

[AuroraSaab]

..... burning a Palestinian flag is just inviting what then went on to happen. Some might think behaviour designed to cause subsequent events.

We've seen lots of flag burnings and provocative behaviour during pro Palestinian demonstrations. Should other people take that as an invitation to violence? If you go down this route, there's never an end to it.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

We've seen lots of flag burnings and provocative behaviour during pro Palestinian demonstrations. Should other people take that as an invitation to violence? If you go down this route, there's never an end to it.

Have we?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Canada https://www.google.com/amp/s/global...uver-anti-israel-demonstration-condemned/amp/
USA
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ha...ro-palestinian-protest-washington-2024-07-25/
UK
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/24/teenagers-arrested-burning-union-flags-free-palestine/

What level of violence is the appropriate response by those offended by these flag burnings? I'd say the response should be no level whatsoever; let the police deal with it if it's an offence.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

Canada https://www.google.com/amp/s/global...uver-anti-israel-demonstration-condemned/amp/
USA
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ha...ro-palestinian-protest-washington-2024-07-25/
UK
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/24/teenagers-arrested-burning-union-flags-free-palestine/

What level of violence is the appropriate response by those offended by these flag burnings? I'd say the response should be no level whatsoever; let the police deal with it if it's an offence.

A bit less than 'lots' then?