multitool
Pharaoh
Who me? Stalking another member throughout the forum?
Let's see your evidence, otherwise get farked.
Israel / Palestine
- Thread starter Beebo
- Start date
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Who me? Stalking another member throughout the forum?
Let's see your evidence, otherwise get farked.
BoldonLad
Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
- Location
- South Tyneside
How do you know which side is doing it?, facts are not exactly freely available
AndyRM
Elder Goth
I'm aware. As I said upthread this whole thing is a mess.
multitool
Pharaoh
I think the thing to remember is that it doesn't really matter what 'we' think. It isn't going to change events. Possibly we could write to our politicians, or we could attend marches if we object to Israeli actions. No point protesting Hamas...they don't care. We could, of course, offer solidarity to Israeli victims, but there is always the danger that the state would read it as support for their military response. What we should do is reassure British Jews that they are welcome and safe, from us at least.
But in terms of discussion we don't have to lay down our position. It is acceptable to say 'I don't know'.
So what do we know? That Hamas are utterly amoral brutal murdering terrorists. That the Israeli response is likely to be equally cruel but in a much larger scale. That the State is casting this as an existential crisis.
What do I think will happen? I think Israel will invade Gaza and obliterate it. I think they will sink quarter of a million troops into it, and they will win but at enormous cost to themselves, civilian life, and their international position. There is the risk of this conflict spreading to Lebanon and beyond.
The US will provide support against external players such as Iran. They have warships in the region, a heavy bomber base in the UK, and abundant ELINT capability. The UK will task GCHQ to provide ELINT and Akrotiri will be very busy.
There may be very limited coverage on the ground in North Gaza City, but plenty of coverage of awful conditions in the winter refugee camps that will spring up in the south of Gaza, but very possibly in the Sinai.
One thing is certain, this is a major conflagration and it will go on for months. If we are lucky it will not spread beyond the Occupied territories, but it will kick off in the West Bank.
But in terms of discussion we don't have to lay down our position. It is acceptable to say 'I don't know'.
So what do we know? That Hamas are utterly amoral brutal murdering terrorists. That the Israeli response is likely to be equally cruel but in a much larger scale. That the State is casting this as an existential crisis.
What do I think will happen? I think Israel will invade Gaza and obliterate it. I think they will sink quarter of a million troops into it, and they will win but at enormous cost to themselves, civilian life, and their international position. There is the risk of this conflict spreading to Lebanon and beyond.
The US will provide support against external players such as Iran. They have warships in the region, a heavy bomber base in the UK, and abundant ELINT capability. The UK will task GCHQ to provide ELINT and Akrotiri will be very busy.
There may be very limited coverage on the ground in North Gaza City, but plenty of coverage of awful conditions in the winter refugee camps that will spring up in the south of Gaza, but very possibly in the Sinai.
One thing is certain, this is a major conflagration and it will go on for months. If we are lucky it will not spread beyond the Occupied territories, but it will kick off in the West Bank.
BoldonLad
Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
- Location
- South Tyneside
C R
Über Member
Daniel Barenboin on the whole mess
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...daniel-barenboim-west-eastern-divan-orchestra
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...daniel-barenboim-west-eastern-divan-orchestra
dutchguylivingintheuk
Veteran
Considering the Russia-Ukraine war partly has the same tactics, but in this war they are on steroids, BBC and other big media have ''factcheckers accounts'' they are slow, and often ''forget'' to check their own media but that's one then you also have ost int accounts they check for geolocation sort off explosion etc. so they often can point to who is who although for example with that on Isreal blamed explosion(on the escape) where the big media today are slowly crawling back from could also have been a gas canister, or something like that but i rocket seems very unlikely due to the clear footage if you play that in 30fps or lower you would see it before impact.
dutchguylivingintheuk
Veteran
It is a beautiful written article however he like so many also goes wrong in writing that it is an 70 year old conflict. It isn't Jews have been in the middle east for ages,(babylon, romans, middle ages etc. )and have been procecuted etc. for so long too. They didn't pick Palestine because they tought ''nice empty peace of land'' they ''picked it'' because they believe it's their holy land. their birthplace. So their position is not ''let's occupy this land because we like it'' their position is more ''this land was taken from us long ago, we have been tossed around the world too much, here is where we make our stand'' They held their ground for over 70 years, yes they only way they known to do that and i'm under no illusion that Netanyahu is gonna do it any different now, is by lots of violence. But to be fair i don't think anything else would work with Hamas. The best chance on lasting peace died when Rabin was murdered, maybe extra telling that is was by a other Jew.
Both sides are full of hatred i think this escalation has put any chances on lasting peace in the fridge for at least a other 20 years, much longer of Hamas or a similar ideology stays in power.
And off course palestian-arabs have just as much right to their claim on that land that's also what makes an soluttion complicated, and also why i believe the forming of the state Isreal wouldn't have change much in terms of the current conflict. if there wasn't Isreal there still would be the same conflict, just with a different name. possibly Jews would all have been killed and/or fled to europe Russia etc. just like they did centuries earlier.
C R
Über Member
Did you actually read what he wrote?
AndyRM
Elder Goth
Israel's UK ambassador mentioned context on 5 Live this morning, in amongst a lot of inflammatory statements.
Is it like experts and we've had enough of context or something? I'm so confused.
AuroraSaab
Squire
He didn't seem to find it too difficult to mention context and also acknowledge that there was no justification for Hamas's attacks on civilians and children.
dutchguylivingintheuk
Veteran
Yep, hard concept these days i known but i did.
Don't talk for me, that is one. He clearly denounced both Hamas as the expected invasion of Isreal. So i don't known what point you trying to make?
C R
Über Member
He also clearly places the cause of the conflict at the feet of those that dreamed creating a jewish homeland in a place where there were people living already. This crap of a centuries old conflict is pure bollöcks, a bunch of Europeans took over a piece of land from someone about seventy years ago and they seem to expect that those displaced somehow evaporate into thin air.