Israel / Palestine

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theclaud

theclaud

Reading around the chip
multitool said:
Well, I don't think your impression is shared by many.

Anyway this is a good read:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/feb/09/uk-foreign-office-war-crimes-arms-gaza-yemen

...and before Claudine arrives to send facts into the memory hole, remember that almost all of this was under the previous Govt, and the Labour govt stopped arms sales to Israel less than 2 months after being elected.
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It is a good read, and a whole lot of its excoriating assessment of UK government complicity is in the present tense. The guy is a diplomat - this stuff is civil-servant speak for "Don't say I didn't try and warn you when you end up in the Hague, Lammy, you jumped-up prick."

But hey, I know you've got important mental gymnastics to perform on account of having yoked your forum credibility to a bunch of genocide-laundering mediocrities.
 
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C R

C R

Veteran
theclaud said:
It is a good read, and a whole lot of its excoriating assessment of UK government complicity is in the present tense. The guy is a diplomat - this stuff is civil-servant speak for "Don't say I didn't try and warn you when you end up in the Hague, Lammy, you jumped-up prick."

But hey, I know you've got important mental gymnastics to perform on account of having yoked your forum credibility to a bunch of genocide-laundering mediocrities.
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Oh, they aren't worried about The Hague. It only applies to small people not to the British or US government. And in any case, those institutions will be bulldozed away like the League of Nations was.
 
multitool

multitool

Pharaoh
"Forum credibility"

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Not only ridiculous, but disingenuous. You have failed to understand the article which is largely about events under the Tory govt, because this chap resigned the month following the election of Labour. It took less than a month after for Labour to act on arms sales.

The only actual criticism of Labour in the article is that the ban was "too late". Well, they were only elected in July. The ban took 2 months.

Lammy is named, but the complaint is that the complainant was not listened to. This seems a bizarre complaint given that shortly after the complainant got what he wanted.

In no way is the article "excoriating" of the Labour government. In you fervour for a cheap point ( because forum points seem to matter far more to you than me) you've neglected to read the article intelligently.

You seem not to have understood the distinction between the diplomatic output of the US and the UK, so let me spell it out for you in simple words you cannot twist.

Trump is calling for annexation of Gaza and expulsion of Palestinians (ethnic cleansing). Starmer has, forever, been calling for ceasefire, peace, and a final settlement involving a Palestinian state (not ethnic cleansing, or genocide). Starmer, shortly after taking office stopped sales of arms to Israel implicated in Gaza war (anti-genocidal).

There is, sadly, an underlying bigger picture that means Starmer has to be somewhat more careful in his choice of words than you or I need to be. He's the PM of a country whose primary role is the defence of the nation, above all else. That defence hinges on US membership of NATO, and there is a very real threat of the US withdrawing from NATO. This would have potentially catastrophic consequences for the UK, the least of which would be the immediate need for defence spending to rise from 2.5% of GDP to nearer 8% of GDP. Which, in turn would mean decimation of public services. The worse consequence would be Russian expansion into Baltic states and Poland, with pan-european war.

Oh, I forgot. We can just borrow more without consequence can't we. :whistle:
 
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multitool

multitool

Pharaoh
glasgowcyclist said:
There were 350 licences for arms supplies to Israel, of which the UK government suspended 30. Whoopie-doo.
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Which British weapons are being used in the Gaza war?

Typhoons? SA80 assault rifles? Challenger tanks?

glasgowcyclist said:
And don't forget, UK military reconnaissance aircraft have flown, and still fly, daily sorties over the area to assist Israel's illegal campaign with intelligence data.
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Unless you know what elint is being collected and passed on it is impossible to say what help is being given.
 
bobzmyunkle

bobzmyunkle

Über Member
multitool said:
Unless you know what elint is being collected and passed on it is impossible to say what help is being given.
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Well, I had to google that - call me stupid if you want.

Electronic intelligence (ELINT) is intelligence gathered using electronic sensors, usually used in military applications. These electronic signals do not contain speech or text (which are considered communications intelligence or (COMINT).

They could be just flying around checking Israel are playing fair, couldn't they?
 
CXRAndy

CXRAndy

Well-Known Member
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...als-citizenship-blocked-uk-politics-live-news
 
glasgowcyclist

glasgowcyclist

Über Member
multitool said:
Which British weapons are being used in the Gaza war?

Typhoons? SA80 assault rifles? Challenger tanks?
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I referred to arms licences, not weapons. We still appear to be providing parts for their F35 jets.

Besides, it wouldn't matter to me if we were supplying only passive equipment like boots. We are providing material, military support to a terrorist government engaged in genocide.


multitool said:
Unless you know what elint is being collected and passed on it is impossible to say what help is being given.
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Similarly, I don't need to know what specific elint is being collected and passed over to understand that, whatever it is, it is useful to a country illegally occupying another and massacring its population.

We should not be facilitating genocide by flying almost 50% of all Gaza surveillance flights (over twice as many as Israel) with a spy plane whose capabilities include target acquisition.
 
multitool

multitool

Pharaoh
glasgowcyclist said:
I referred to arms licences, not weapons. We still appear to be providing parts for their F35 jets.

Besides, it wouldn't matter to me if we were supplying only passive equipment like boots. We are providing material, military support to a terrorist government engaged in genocide.
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This is where it gets tricky.

Why do you think it is that the UK excluded F35 parts from the embargo? (Rhetorical question, but give your answer...and no, it's not because Starmer supports genocide)

glasgowcyclist said:
Similarly, I don't need to know what specific elint is being collected and passed over to understand that, whatever it is, it is useful to a country illegally occupying another and massacring its population.
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Actually you do, because justifiably or not, hostages were taken from an allied nation by a proscribed terrorist group*

*you could argue that they are freedom fighters, but youd still have to justify the mass slaughter of civilians.

glasgowcyclist said:
We should not be facilitating genocide by flying almost 50% of all Gaza surveillance flights (over twice as many as Israel) with a spy plane whose capabilities include target acquisition.
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In order to make that claim, you'd have to know what info is being shared. It's more than a little presumptuous to label the RAF aircrew, and the intelligence analysts as "genocide facilitators".

The bottom line is that Israel has and is successfully carrying out a genocide without UK help.

I would be surprised if UK has given targeting data but I would not be surprised if they have given intelligence on the location of hostages.

This in itself would work against the attempted genocide as Israel has been using the retention of hostages as a motive for continuing the killing.
 
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