Israel / Palestine

[winjim]

Who to blame the most? Those who, knowingly and deliberately, put civilians in harm's way and then attack and goad their enemy knowing civilianswill be killed, or those who, deliberately and knowingly, kill civilians in order to get back at their enemy?

What a conundrum. I find it easier to think of them both as showers of shite who value lives cheaply.

I'm not judging, just pointing out the absurdity of the argument. There's no space away from civilian areas for the Palestinians to put a military installation, and even if there were, Israel would bomb it to smithereens before it was even built.

 

[Rusty Nails]

I'm not judging, just pointing out the absurdity of the argument. There's no space away from civilian areas for the Palestinians to put a military installation, and even if there were, Israel would bomb it to smithereens before it was even built.

I believe from the general tone of your posts that you are judging...and there is nothing wrong with that because of Israel's long history of oppressing Palestinians.

The argument is no more absurd than blaming your enemy for bombing civilians when you base yourself in and launch attacks from those highly populated areas knowing the likely consequences.

War is absurd and an admission of failure.

 

[winjim]

I believe from the general tone of your posts that you are judging...and there is nothing wrong with that because of Israel's long history of oppressing Palestinians.

The argument is no more absurd than blaming your enemy for bombing civilians when you base yourself in and launch attacks from those highly populated areas knowing the likely consequences.

War is absurd and an admission of failure.

Obviously we all have our biases so in that respect I am judging but also I'm not gonna claim to be an expert on this conflict, it's just something that's been rumbling along in the background all my life really. I'm learning and thinking about it more in the last week than I have over the last forty years.

That said, and knowing very little about the topography of the Gaza strip, I think my point stands and would apply not just to Hamas but to any armed Palestinian resistance. There's simply nowhere to put them without hiding in civilian areas. So it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that they're somehow not playing fair by doing so.

 

[theclaud]

So they apologize for ''poorly phrased'' apparently but don't elaborate on what they reported wrong. Probably actually correct but not left enough. but it remais to be gueswork, it does imply that they called all Palestinians Hamas instead of concentrating of all those phrases like the one that calls to kill all the jews...

But hey never let an demonstration because Palestians get bomb showers because their ''military'' slaughtered over 1000 civilians get in the way right? Of they would have any self-criticism they would bundle up all those Hamas ''fighters'' and kick them over the border so Isreal doesn't have to drop bomb, but no we have now also footage that shows civilians from Palestine went over the bother to score themselves a nice Jewish TV, computer etc. few bloodspats but otherwise as new...
Maybe they should think about that next time a relative died in a bombimg, but they won't and that's why this conflict is not going to be solved anytime soon. Because they other way round for example in 2018 when an Isreali solder shot an 15 years old palestian who was unarmed, the soldier got a 6 week punishment(basicly for mishandling his weapon i believe) So they are fueling each other hatred and Witnessing both us and Belgium yesterday it seems to be spreading

WTF are you even on about?

 

[Rusty Nails]

Obviously we all have our biases so in that respect I am judging but also I'm not gonna claim to be an expert on this conflict, it's just something that's been rumbling along in the background all my life really. I'm learning and thinking about it more in the last week than I have over the last forty years.

That said, and knowing very little about the topography of the Gaza strip, I think my point stands and would apply not just to Hamas but to any armed Palestinian resistance. There's simply nowhere to put them without hiding in civilian areas. So it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that they're somehow not playing fair by doing so.

What either side say about the other side's tactics is predictable.

Neither Hamas nor the Israel government are playing fair.

War in that area has never been "fair" and never will be. It will not end soon.

 

[albion]

https://www.france24.com/en/live-ne...displaced-as-israel-readies-for-ground-attack

500 dead at the hospital, said elsewhere. Biden should but will not cancel.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

One might suggest that's a fairly pointless tactic to use against an opponent who has no compunction about killing civilians, reportedly even their own, and their own hostages.

The question/point was not to fill in what you think Hamas motives might be, the fact is that did and do it, and they think it's so normal that their spokeperson even said ''Isreali's love live, Palestians love to matyr themselves''

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

That said, and knowing very little about the topography of the Gaza strip, I think my point stands and would apply not just to Hamas but to any armed Palestinian resistance. There's simply nowhere to put them without hiding in civilian areas. So it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that they're somehow not playing fair by doing so.

Then you would logically think they would at least use empty buildings or tell people to move out, they don't quite to the contrary they move more people in those buildings.
That is the whole reason behind ''knock knock'' calls when Isreal call people in a building they are about to bomb to given them time to evacuate this has all.

 

[winjim]

Live laugh love

 

[BoldonLad]

I'm not judging, just pointing out the absurdity of the argument. There's no space away from civilian areas for the Palestinians to put a military installation, and even if there were, Israel would bomb it to smithereens before it was even built.

'Hamas hide military installations in civilian areas.'

They're in one of the most densely populated regions on the planet and living under occupation, where the hell else are they gonna put them?

If the area is as densely populated as you suggest, surely, the civilian population must have observed the build up and preparation for the Hamas attack?

 

[Deleted member 49]

War in that area has never been "fair" and never will be. It will not end soon.

Especially with the enthusiastic support of Western governments.

 

[Rusty Nails]

If the area is as densely populated as you suggest, surely, the civilian population must have observed the build up and preparation for the Hamas attack?

So surely they could have just gone up to the chap in charge, said "look old chap, this just isn't on" and that would have stopped everything. Hamas are reasonable like that.

What exactly are you saying? That Gaza is not overcrowded or that Hamas were wandering about the streets carrying paragliders, bombs and machine guns?

Hamas may be evil but they are also clever. They are said to have planned this without using internet or phone messages that can be spied on but relying on word of mouth and handwritten messages. They also have a network of tunnels more than 200 miles long.

 

[winjim]

If the area is as densely populated as you suggest, surely, the civilian population must have observed the build up and preparation for the Hamas attack?

I observed the build up to the Iraq war and expressed my disapproval to the government at the time but it still went ahead.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Especially with the enthusiastic support of Western governments.

Without the support of Western governments, enthusiastic or otherwise, and primarily the US, there would definitely be a war between a heavily, and nuclear, armed Israel and Arab nations including Iran that would make recent events look like a playground fight.

But there is no doubt that Western governments, especially the US, should be putting a lot more pressure on Israel to strictly limit the impact of reprisals on civilians.

 

[Deleted member 49]

Without the support of Western governments, enthusiastic or otherwise, and primarily the US, there would definitely be a war between a heavily, and nuclear, armed Israel and Arab nations including Iran that would make recent events look like a playground fight.

But there is no doubt that Western governments, especially the US, should be putting a lot more pressure on Israel to strictly limit the impact of reprisals on civilians.

How does this make anyone safer ? It's horrific, the impact on the stability of the entire Middle East and Arab world will increase with each escalation.Bombing hospitals in self defence ffs.Biden should be calling for a ceasefire and restraint,he could have done this last week.