Israel / Palestine

[spen666]

Reading the posts on this thread is at time depressing.

Just like the situation between Israel and Palestine , many ( not all) people have got entrenched views and only see the issue from one side of the argument.

Until those involved work towards a solution rather than simply dig in to defend their "side's" actions, there will never be a resolution to this issue.

 

[multitool]

Reading the posts on this thread is at time depressing.

Just like the situation between Israel and Palestine , many ( not all) people have got entrenched views and only see the issue from one side of the argument.

Until those involved work towards a solution rather than simply dig in to defend their "side's" actions, there will never be a resolution to this issue.

Only issue is literally all the power rests on one side which is why we saw the desperately appalling actions of 7/10.

That asymmetry needs to be acknowledged.

 

[spen666]

Only issue is literally all the power rests on one side which is why we saw the desperately appalling actions of 7/10.

That asymmetry needs to be acknowledged.

QED

 

[multitool]

QED

Not really.

 

[matticus]

Reading the posts on this thread is at time depressing.

Just like the situation between Israel and Palestine , many ( not all) people have got entrenched views and only see the issue from one side of the argument.

Until those involved work towards a solution rather than simply dig in to defend their "side's" actions, there will never be a resolution to this issue.

Yes. (as i mentioned last Friday after BBC QT) it's been very illuminating hearing the views of people who were involved (or witnessed) the Nor'n Ireland peace process. They've seen what you have to do, the compromises that have to happen. Heroically calling out atrocities on the internet doesn't move anyone forward.

 

[Deleted member 49]

Yes. (as i mentioned last Friday after BBC QT) it's been very illuminating hearing the views of people who were involved (or witnessed) the Nor'n Ireland peace process. They've seen what you have to do, the compromises that have to happen. Heroically calling out atrocities on the internet doesn't move anyone forward.

Wonder how that would of worked out if we'd decided to carpet bomb N Ireland.

 

[matticus]

"would have" my boy - I can see why you never made it into serious politics ... :shakeshead:

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Yeah, I haven't said any of that.

Correct, it was a response to what you where writing, you can agree or disagree with it but it is indeed not what you said.

Not at all. That’s something you have inferred, wrongly.

there was a question mark behind it, so i did not insert anything i was asking for clarification.

I have no problem describing Hamas shooting civilians at a festival as terrorism.
Similarly, I have no problem describing the actions of Israel’s government, through their IDF, as terrorism.

something we agree on

Attacking and punishing the entire population of Gaza is terrorism, with or without warnings.

Again something we agree on alltough i don't agree that all their actions contribute to terrorism, cutting of the water and such alltough Isreal is only supplying 7% is indeed punishing the whole population but airstikes on launch-sites is defending themselves, just as a ground operation can be depending on how they behave. But just bombing everything sounds and feel very russian, when they claim they ''liberated'' and town and it's literately bombed to the ground.

Only issue is literally all the power rests on one side which is why we saw the desperately appalling actions of 7/10.

That asymmetry needs to be acknowledged.

I would argue the Asymmetry before 7-10 insured relative peace as before that there where rocket attacks every once in a while, Isreal retaliated once in a while but it was nothing of the sorts we have now.
Daily life was still functional.
And how the current balance of power is we don't known, it's not longer only Hamas but the numerous Iran proxies aswell. Most likely Isreal is still (much) more powerfull but if they don't respond as strong as they intend too things might change for the worse.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Yes. (as i mentioned last Friday after BBC QT) it's been very illuminating hearing the views of people who were involved (or witnessed) the Nor'n Ireland peace process. They've seen what you have to do, the compromises that have to happen. Heroically calling out atrocities on the internet doesn't move anyone forward.

Wonder how that would of worked out if we'd decided to carpet bomb N Ireland.

Did the IRA have in their founding documents ''their reason to exist'' something like ''all British must be destroyed'' along with ''the whole world will be IRA controlled north Irish'' ?
If not you can't compared it with a terrorist organization who does have said objectives.
Don't forget, Hamas starts with their desire to destroy Israel their bigger goal is to start an Islamic caliphate that covers the whole world.

 

[AndyRM]

I'm pretty sure that Hamas have signed numerous treaties/agreements in the past, saying that they recognise borders and would.

I don't think they've ever said that they want to take over the world.

 

[multitool]

Yes. (as i mentioned last Friday after BBC QT) it's been very illuminating hearing the views of people who were involved (or witnessed) the Nor'n Ireland peace process. They've seen what you have to do, the compromises that have to happen. Heroically calling out atrocities on the internet doesn't move anyone forward.

I've listened to some of the discussions involving Northern Ireland, but I really don't think it is very helpful. NI was on a micro level compared to I/P. Most people in NI were unaffected by the troubles, and in the entire 30 years there were only a handful of incidents of civilian deaths at the hands of the State, with Bloody Sunday being the standout. Palestinians have had the equivalent of 76 Bloody Sundays, every year, for 70 years. There is no Palestinian whose life is not affected by life in an apartheid state.

If you want to talk about forgiveness and putting aside past events you'd have to address the Israelis invoking the Holocaust, which has absolutely nothing to do with Palestinians.

The truth is the Israelis are raging about the Hamas attack because up until now they've been able to do pretty much what they want to the Palestinians with very little in the way of tangible consequences, either politically or militarily.

In political terms, the asymmetry means that in terms of 'compromise' the Palestinians have literally nothing on which to compromise.

 

[Deleted member 49]

"would have" my boy - I can see why you never made it into serious politics ... :shakeshead:

Yawn....

 

[Deleted member 49]

I've listened to some of the discussions involving Northern Ireland, but I really don't think it is very helpful. NI was on a micro level compared to I/P. Most people in NI were unaffected by the troubles, and in the entire 30 years there were only a handful of incidents of civilian deaths at the hands of the State, with Bloody Sunday being the standout. Palestinians have had the equivalent of 76 Bloody Sundays, every year, for 70 years. There is no Palestinian whose life is not affected by life in an apartheid state.

Tool...if you seriously think there were only a 'handful of civilian deaths' at the hands of the state you need to do a little more research.There was a reason this government pushed the legacy bill through.Different thread though maybe.
Also more than likely why the Irish get it and have been so vocal about it.The Israel Ambassador to Ireland accused Irish people of having an “unconscious bias” favouring Palestine lol.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

I'm pretty sure that Hamas have signed numerous treaties/agreements in the past, saying that they recognise borders and would.

No the Palestinians did, Hamas since they rule Gaza in 2007 have use all the time between attacks to prepare for new attacks. and their founding documents state Allh will grant them victory in Isreal at one point and after they it's their objective to go after Israel's allies then the world.

I don't think they've ever said that they want to take over the world.

No they believe allah will grant them victory but it is an objective.

 

[winjim]

No the Palestinians did, Hamas since they rule Gaza in 2007 have use all the time between attacks to prepare for new attacks. and their founding documents state Allh will grant them victory in Isreal at one point and after they it's their objective to go after Israel's allies then the world.

No they believe allah will grant them victory but it is an objective.

There are Jews who believe that they have a right to that land because they are God's chosen people and there are American evangelicals who support war in Israel because they believe it will bring about the rapture. Bonkers religious justification for war, atrocity and ethnic cleansing in this particular conflict is not unique to Hamas.