Israel / Palestine

[multitool]

Same as Arafat had available to offer in 2001, a cessation of hostilities and an avenue to a 2 state solution. Current intransigence from leaders on both sides means Hamas will carry on Hasmas-ing and Israelis will keep electing hard line governments. Until there is a change of heart at the top on both sides any progress seems unlikely.

...and where did that get the Palestinians?

No state, and continued oppression. Why? Because it mattered not to the Israelis. When you are fighting insurgents armed with Soviet-era small arms and homemade rockets, but you have F-35s, ELINT, current generation MBTs, and a missile interception system, you can pretty much do what you like.

 

[matticus]

you have F-35s, ELINT, current generation MBTs, and a missile interception system

Is anyone else getting turned on by this?

 

[AndyRM]

That's not what i said at all.


tldr i pointed out you're wrong and why along with a clear outline and now it are ''ramblings'' it's just called ''copium''

You didn't do that at all. But whatever. You do you babes.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

That's not what i said at all.

You said

it's targeting everyone so no not just civilians.

That’s an acknowledgement that civilians are being targeted, but along with the bad guys, as if that makes it ok.

Please tell me how I could interpret that any other way.

 

[newfhouse]

Is anyone else getting turned on by this?

Just you and the Dutch fella, I think.

 

[fozy tornip]

Just you and the Dutch fella, I think.

Not so fast; give us a chance to straighten our clothing.

 

[Xipe Totec]

I stand with @winjim

Dunno why anyone bothers with Dutchies incomprehensible ramblings. I've tried for longer than I should have really.

I learned many months ago to just scroll past, as soon as the endless paragraphs of inane, incoherent, contrarian squealing appear.

Never got the impression I was missing anything of the remotest consequence.

 

[AuroraSaab]

...and where did that get the Palestinians?

No state, and continued oppression. Why? Because it mattered not to the Israelis. When you are fighting insurgents armed with Soviet-era small arms and homemade rockets, but you have F-35s, ELINT, current generation MBTs, and a missile interception system, you can pretty much do what you like.

Then why did the Israelis agree to Camp David at all? Why haven't they wiped Gaza off the map in the 25 years since if they can do what they like? It's attitudes at the top on both sides that have scuppered any progress. Neither side willing to compromise enough, and in recent years unwilling to give any ground at all. Gaza isn't going anywhere, Israel isn't going anywhere, and for all the pontificating on here the only prospect is another 25 years of the same.

 

[multitool]

Then why did the Israelis agree to Camp David at all? Why haven't they wiped Gaza off the map in the 25 years since if they can do what they like? It's attitudes at the top on both sides that have scuppered any progress. Neither side willing to compromise enough, and in recent years unwilling to give any ground at all. Gaza isn't going anywhere, Israel isn't going anywhere, and for all the pontificating on here the only prospect is another 25 years of the same.

Sorry...enlighten me.

What compromise do you think the Palestinians have to make? They are squished into an open prison with the Israelis controlling their borders, their airspace, their water, their electricity, and periodically the bomb their infrastructure. It is an enclave with one of the highest pop.densities in the world.

In the West Bank, they are under constant attack, with violent settlers stealing their land and their livelihood, all of which is underwritten by IDF violence. Every aspect of Palestinian life is controlled by Israel. The Palestinians can't raise snow army, an airforce or a navy. On top of this it was the Israelis who encouraged, promted and funded Hamas.

Given that you are a right-wing culture warrior, it comes as no surprise that you hold the views you hold.

 

[AuroraSaab]

There'll be no progress unless both sides are willing to make concessions, fair or not. The main concessions Hamas could make are a ceasefire and drop ideological claims re Israel. Israel could cease all hostilities, stop witholding power etc and relinquish claims to the settlements. Any suggestions that rely on one side making concessions whilst the other doesn't are doomed to fail.

Your view that Hamas need do nothing means another 25 years of the same.

 

[C R]

There'll be no progress unless both sides are willing to make concessions, fair or not. The main concessions Hamas could make are a ceasefire and drop ideological claims re Israel. Israel could cease all hostilities, stop witholding power etc and relinquish claims to the settlements. Any suggestions that rely on one side making concessions whilst the other doesn't are doomed to fail.

Your view that Hamas need do nothing means another 25 years of the same.

What further concessions are the Palestinians supposed to make?

 

[Ian H]

There'll be no progress unless both sides are willing to make concessions, fair or not. The main concessions Hamas could make are a ceasefire and drop ideological claims re Israel. Israel could cease all hostilities, stop witholding power etc and relinquish claims to the settlements. Any suggestions that rely on one side making concessions whilst the other doesn't are doomed to fail.

Your view that Hamas need do nothing means another 25 years of the same.

Israel do not want an accord with the Palestinians.
In March 2019, Netanyahu told his Likud colleagues: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”

 

[AuroraSaab]

That's Netanyahu not the Israeli people, who have mostly favoured a 2 state solution in surveys and polls. You've altered that quote though, haven't you? The article actually says he 'reportedly said'.

The demands that Israel make concessions but Hamas don't need to do anything means the status quo continues, at best. I can't think of any international dispute that was resolved (not imposed) where one side made concessions and the other didn't. We can all sit here and cheer on either side or none, claim that one side or the other, or neither, have the moral high ground, but eventually both sides will have to decide whether clinging on to their ideology is more important than future peace. At the moment both Hamas and the Israeli government think it is. There'll be no winners, just more of the same.

 

[C R]

That's Netanyahu not the Israeli people, who have mostly favoured a 2 state solution in surveys and polls. The demands that Israel make concessions but Hamas don't need to do anything means the status quo continues, at best.

Again, what more should the Palestinians give up, and if you absolve Israel of Netanyahu's position you must also absolve the Palestinians of Hamas' position.

 

[multitool]

Your view that Hamas need do nothing means another 25 years of the same.

That isn't my view. But well done on trying to put words in my mouth. Old habits die hard, I suppose.

You don't seem to understand that Hamas could disappear, and all the issues would remain. Hamas is a symptom of the issues, not the cause of them, which is why the issues did not begin in 1987 on the foundation of Hamas.

I note that the Gazans have been fleeing to Khan Younis. Thise of us with more than a superficial knowledge of this conflict know that the name Khan Younis resonates.