Israel / Palestine

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dutchguylivingintheuk

dutchguylivingintheuk

Über Member
Ian H said:
Rabin and Arafat won the peace prize. The Israelis spent decades trying to kill Arafat. An Israeli assassinated Rabin.
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And Arafat spend those same decades trying to kill Isreali officials, civilians and so on. You kind of missing the point, it was not about pointing out which side did which violence nor claiming there was no violence at all. it was simply about the fact that also within the isreali's there was and still are fractions that want peace, it's not all warmongers like @newfhouse seemed to claim.

C R said:
Only the problem started long before hamas, hezbollah or the islamic republic of iran even existed. In all this time Israel has paid lip service to wanting peace, and instead has been squeezing the Palestinians into an ever smaller area of land. So nice try, but that cartoon is böllocks.
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Bit of an oversimplification, like @Unkraut already pointed out, the division was suggested by the former Brisitsh empire and the Palestinians didn't accept it and started a war instead. If they would have accepted it they would have a much bigger piece of land. If you look at the original maps. But they didn't so any claim about occupying land is wrong too, it wasn't palestian land to begin with, it was at the time of split British. and if you don't accept an resulution you can't first start an fight and than claim the original settlement was stolen from you.
That is similar too dragging someone to court, refuse their offred settlement and when you lose the case, come back to the settlement and claim it's stolen from you when the other party doesn't want to settle anymore. (bit oversimplyfied but the idea is quite the same.)

The problem would have been much less off an issue if Israel wasn't loaded with Jews, if it was one side Suni-muslim and the other side one other muslim group there still be some conflict but less, and other arab countries would be less involved. we can talk around the problem all we want, but the middle east just like Europe before the second world war has a certain hatred against Jews. In europe it became not done to hate on Jews after the second world war but in the middle east they never got that memo. see for example https://twitter.com/HusseinAboubak/ (guy from egypt who has written and writes a lot about his perspective growing up in Egypt and being confronted with the fact they did not like him wanting to known more about jews and slowly finding out they are not at all as bad as they where protrayed.)

Fast forward to this day we have a few things coming together, Iran that tries to prove it's right on existence, the weakening of Russia has made them feel more confident, similar as european countries buying gas from Russia gave Russia the feeling they got the power and resources to take on Ukraine.(Which in all fairness on paper they would have been able too, if it wasn't for the fact that at least half of everything on paper was based on lies)
Iran has been playing with the concept of proxy war for a long time, and for them that works quite well now as they have sponsored Hezbollah several syrian fractions, some fractions in Iraq and the rebels against Saudi. and offcourse Hamas.

Iran is interested in creating an power block, to be able to oppose the US and Nato, so their main interessert in creating unrest is gambling on stronger armies that come out of it that might be able to fight the suni's like Turkiye, Saudi and so futher and so forth. if they would win that there a step futher to making an dent in US/Nato however thankfully they far from it.

If Hamas and/or Hezbollah would ever defeat Isreal it would must likely end in an war between those to on the slightly longer term. As reimes like this don't have a good track record standng still there made to train ''mujahidin'' or fighters so if there is a period of relative peace conflict will follow. That's why Hamas replaced Fatah, fatah had become to peacefull the war mongers had a thirst for blood as we seen on the 7th.
 
C R

C R

Über Member
dutchguylivingintheuk said:
And Arafat spend those same decades trying to kill Isreali officials, civilians and so on. You kind of missing the point, it was not about pointing out which side did which violence nor claiming there was no violence at all. it was simply about the fact that also within the isreali's there was and still are fractions that want peace, it's not all warmongers like @newfhouse seemed to claim.


Bit of an oversimplification, like @Unkraut already pointed out, the division was suggested by the former Brisitsh empire and the Palestinians didn't accept it and started a war instead. If they would have accepted it they would have a much bigger piece of land. If you look at the original maps. But they didn't so any claim about occupying land is wrong too, it wasn't palestian land to begin with, it was at the time of split British. and if you don't accept an resulution you can't first start an fight and than claim the original settlement was stolen from you.
That is similar too dragging someone to court, refuse their offred settlement and when you lose the case, come back to the settlement and claim it's stolen from you when the other party doesn't want to settle anymore. (bit oversimplyfied but the idea is quite the same.)

The problem would have been much less off an issue if Israel wasn't loaded with Jews, if it was one side Suni-muslim and the other side one other muslim group there still be some conflict but less, and other arab countries would be less involved. we can talk around the problem all we want, but the middle east just like Europe before the second world war has a certain hatred against Jews. In europe it became not done to hate on Jews after the second world war but in the middle east they never got that memo. see for example https://twitter.com/HusseinAboubak/ (guy from egypt who has written and writes a lot about his perspective growing up in Egypt and being confronted with the fact they did not like him wanting to known more about jews and slowly finding out they are not at all as bad as they where protrayed.)

Fast forward to this day we have a few things coming together, Iran that tries to prove it's right on existence, the weakening of Russia has made them feel more confident, similar as european countries buying gas from Russia gave Russia the feeling they got the power and resources to take on Ukraine.(Which in all fairness on paper they would have been able too, if it wasn't for the fact that at least half of everything on paper was based on lies)
Iran has been playing with the concept of proxy war for a long time, and for them that works quite well now as they have sponsored Hezbollah several syrian fractions, some fractions in Iraq and the rebels against Saudi. and offcourse Hamas.

Iran is interested in creating an power block, to be able to oppose the US and Nato, so their main interessert in creating unrest is gambling on stronger armies that come out of it that might be able to fight the suni's like Turkiye, Saudi and so futher and so forth. if they would win that there a step futher to making an dent in US/Nato however thankfully they far from it.

If Hamas and/or Hezbollah would ever defeat Isreal it would must likely end in an war between those to on the slightly longer term. As reimes like this don't have a good track record standng still there made to train ''mujahidin'' or fighters so if there is a period of relative peace conflict will follow. That's why Hamas replaced Fatah, fatah had become to peacefull the war mongers had a thirst for blood as we seen on the 7th.
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I'd prefer that land rights claims are not decided on the basis of a collection of stone age fairy stories.
 
Milzy

Milzy

Well-Known Member
C R said:
Only the problem started long before hamas, hezbollah or the islamic republic of iran even existed. In all this time Israel has paid lip service to wanting peace, and instead has been squeezing the Palestinians into an ever smaller area of land. So nice try, but that cartoon is böllocks.
Click to expand...

Correct. It’s Zionist propaganda from the likes of Quora!
 
dutchguylivingintheuk

dutchguylivingintheuk

Über Member
C R said:
I'd prefer that land rights claims are not decided on the basis of a collection of stone age fairy stories.
Click to expand...
With Isreal/Palestina they weren't did you read at all, if not my text then history books? It was controlled by the Britisch empire that as a country decided it wanted to split up and make them self-govern. That there where strong franctions that pushed for the forming of Isreal does not change that.
The palestians drew the shortest straw because they refused to settle with the un accepted split off then british palestine, so there claim was null and void.
Whatever beleives jews and christians have to the area are not important here.
 
dutchguylivingintheuk

dutchguylivingintheuk

Über Member
It's time for an other round of Muslims that don't really like Hamas and friends, so @cookiemonster can call them islamhophobe.. such an authority!


View: https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1718374003163717996



View: https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1718397224239894678



View: https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1718357352515023181



View: https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1718308457248416204


and in the process answered a lot of whataboutery....
 
cookiemonster

cookiemonster

Veteran
Location
Far away from the asylum
dutchguylivingintheuk said:
It's time for an other round of Muslims that don't really like Hamas and friends, so @cookiemonster can call them islamhophobe.. such an authority!


View: https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1718374003163717996



View: https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1718397224239894678



View: https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1718357352515023181



View: https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1718308457248416204


and in the process answered a lot of whataboutery....
Click to expand...


Nobody on this forum has supported Hamas' disgusting actions at any point so, I think, you've just wasted time posting that. We all know the majority of Muslims have no time for Hamas/Hezbollah. In fact, Humza Yousaf, Scottish First Minister and Muslim (who has family trapped in Gaza) has called out Hamas/Hezbollah on numerous occasions over the past few weeks.

He's also been one of the few major European leaders, Ireland and Spain included, who have called for an immediate ceasefire.

Facts are not whataboutery.
 
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multitool

multitool

Pharaoh
The "you support Hamas" trick comes from the same playbook as eliding criticism of Israel with anti-semitism. In fact, its been widened now to include any expression of empathy with Palestinians as being generated by anti-semitic beliefs.

Naturally, I'm sure we all believe that if it were Buddists or Christians driving the Palestinians from their homes, and killing thousands in the process, that we would all be cool with it.
 
winjim

winjim

Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
multitool said:
The "you support Hamas" trick comes from the same playbook as eliding criticism of Israel with anti-semitism. In fact, its been widened now to include any expression of empathy with Palestinians as being generated by anti-semitic beliefs.

Naturally, I'm sure we all believe that if it were Buddists or Christians driving the Palestinians from their homes, and killing thousands in the process, that we would all be cool with it.
Click to expand...


View: https://twitter.com/DreamLeaf5/status/1718516398316454351?t=fbsurSlvohLtiRJz9VdSxQ&s=19
 
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