Israel / Palestine

[AndyRM]

The knowledge of the region and religions with their history is good. Wiki does have a lot of truth still but isn’t perfect. Interesting information thanks for adding.
However explain to me how they were “surprised”? They have the best counter terrorist program on the planet. Satellites can read grave stones & they can listen in to Joe Biden snoozing in his rocking chair. Hamas were Slowly gliding in on a clear sunny day. Hamas were 100% helped by somebody else. Children will be killed and people will profit. Petrol will go up even more now. Iran is next. You all see everything in black and white but I can see how it was all designed. Others may think the same but don’t have the balls to admit it.

You are Helmut Bakaitis AICMFP.

 

[Fab Foodie]

Am not one for conspiracy theories, but am I the only one thinking that China will be looking to take advantage and further its own military ambitions whilst the US Govt. is in turmoil has it's eye on the Israeli/Palestine conflict and Ukraine - further destabilising the global politic? China and Russia have most to gain by further destabilisation of the west and it's overseas capabilities

Furthermore, @Milzy has a point here - this was a humongous intelligence failure for the Israelis (supposedly the best of the best), which makes you wonder whether Hamas got very very lucky or had external help.....

Finally, for the record I stand with the people of Palestine and have no love for the oppressive Israeli state. I also have young Jewish friends in Jerusalem who have been called-up to the military. We gave up our house to their family this summer when they got married. Yesterday they were all alive.

War is abhorrent, history shows that it creates change when negotiation is fruitless.
If nobody is listening what's left?

 

[Milzy]

You are Helmut Bakaitis AICMFP.

More people are open to the idea that we could be a simulation. The future AI will think it’s conscious one day. Elon Musk says humanity must be careful with it.

 

[AndyRM]

More people are open to the idea that we could be a simulation. The future AI will think it’s conscious one day. Elon Musk says humanity must be careful with it.

Not a new thing really, and something that I've often thought about. An interesting idea, and properly mind bending if you get seriously into it.

 

[winjim]

That's why my post your quoted didn't contain any numbers, they are indeed hard to verify and often used as a tool to gain sympathy. but don't take into account evil action like Hamas did in the past which included moving women and children into buildings they known Isreal is going to bomb. It's just a whole different ballgame if the other side is a bunch of terrorist who don't care about the lives of their civilians anyway.

You seem to be removing agency from the Israeli forces. It's not like building your house on a flood plain, these are decisions made by real, living, thinking people. It seems a bit dehumanising to shrug your shoulders and say yeah, Israelis can't help but commit war crimes, what you gonna do?

And yes I'm aware that using civilians and hostages as a human shield could also be considered a war crime but that doesn't justify another war crime in return and I'd like to think we should hold a UN recognised nation state to higher standards than a terrorist organisation.

 

[Milzy]

My take on China is that Xi Jinping just wants to trade with the entire world. He doesn’t want war but is ready for it. It’s the US Navy ships who sail close to China to provoke them. China let shipping pass through its straits without searching them. I’ve read China have a plan/idea to build railway lines across Asia into Europe to transport their goods without any potential harassment at sea. Russia just want the Eastern part of Ukraine who are very culturally different to the western side. In time I believe the Ukraine cabinet will just suddenly disband and disappear. Media are feeding us horse poop about that conflict for certain. Luckily most of us won’t have friends and family caught up in both.

 

[Deleted member 159]

I’ve read China have a plan/idea to build railway lines across Asia into Europe to transport their goods without any potential harassment at sea

They used to do that before Russia invaded Ukraine. I've ordered a bike by rail freight from China. It came via Russia into Poland

Maybe it's going via, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan,Iran, then into Turkey.

Lots of dodgy countries to deal with there

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

You seem to be removing agency from the Israeli forces. It's not like building your house on a flood plain, these are decisions made by real, living, thinking people. It seems a bit dehumanising to shrug your shoulders and say yeah, Israelis can't help but commit war crimes, what you gonna do?

That's not what said/wanted to say or implied, however if Isreal didn't have the Iron Dome there population would have been wiped out, if Isreal made an mistake with their border earlier/more often, their wouldn't have been an Isreal anymore, as we have seen in the past few days no efforts where spared to systematically kill everything in sight by Hamas terrorist.
The passed week once again proved that it was never an lack of will to kill as much isreali's as possible. The only reason Isreal is so much more succesfull in killing palestinians is they have better weapons build better equipment etc. etc. Something the palestians could have done too but they choose the path of short term terror movements.

But i don't agree with any war crimes of either side.

And yes I'm aware that using civilians and hostages as a human shield could also be considered a war crime but that doesn't justify another war crime in return and I'd like to think we should hold a UN recognised nation state to higher standards than a terrorist organisation.

That is true, i agree with you that they should be held accountable for their war crimes like for example cutting of water and eletricity.

 

[theclaud]

Funny how your first post on this topic is one attacking another poster. Nothing's too tragic to be appropriated as a vehicle to be snarky for you, Claud. Most people might think 'Maybe not right now'. Not you though. Glad to see you don't let horrific events prevent you from point scoring on here.

I've criticised Israel in this thread. It's not hard to do so whilst still acknowledging that the actions of Hamas were uncalled for atrocities against civilians. It seems to be the second bit people are struggling with.

This isn't about our spats in other threads - it's purely about your contribution to this one as the main voice of the Unequivocal Condemnation brigade, which (in case you hadn't noticed) is exactly the position of all the politicians and journos currently excusing extreme violence and calling for a whole lot more of it. "But do you unequivocally condemn Hamas?!?!?!" is a fake question that is only asked by deeply unserious people who are not interested in what is actually happening.

 

[C R]

@AuroraSaab, have you managed to substantiate the hamas rape reports?

 

[PK99]

OTOH hamas being murderous lunatic arsëholes doesn't justify the collective punishment of the Palestinians. The same way that the red army acting like murderous lunatic arsëholes doesn't justify or is justified by the conduct of the German army during the war.

Regarding the rape claims, I haven't seen them reported by any reliable source, not even Israeli mainstream sources.

Is not Hamas the de fact government of Palestine and does it not have the support of the majority of the population .


Drawing parallels with the Red Army is disseembling of the highest order

 

[C R]

Is not Hamas the de fact government of Palestine and does it not have the support of the majority of the population .


Drawing parallels with the Red Army is disseembling of the highest order

Two things

* I didn't bring up the red army, I was replying to another poster who did

* Collective punishment of the civilian population is a war crime, regardless of who the population support. Hamas' attack on the music festival was a war crime, as is the collective punishment of the Gaza population by Israel

 

[AuroraSaab]

There are pictures circulating on social media of captured young women with heavy bloodstains on the crotches and rear of their clothes. I'm distrustful of some video/images from this conflict because activists on both sides will recycle material from elsewhere and claim it's from the recent incidents, but what's more likely? These pictures and accounts of rape are genuine or that Hamas will shoot small children in the head but draw the line at rape? Rape is a weapon of war and always has been.

https://themedialine.org/top-storie...error-speak-from-hadassah-ein-kerem-hospital/

https://themessenger.com/news/israe...ped-next-to-bodies-of-murdered-friends-report

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/israel-music-festival-massacre-eyewitness-account

As time goes on no doubt fuller accounts willl emerge. Seeing as Hamas murdered an elderly woman then uploaded the video of it to the woman's own Facebook page, do you imagine they are treating kidnapped teenage Jewish girls with kindness and respect? Why shoot dead the young men but kidnap the young women?

 

[AuroraSaab]

This isn't about our spats in other threads - it's purely about your contribution to this one as the main voice of the Unequivocal Condemnation brigade, which (in case you hadn't noticed) is exactly the position of all the politicians and journos currently excusing extreme violence and calling for a whole lot more of it.

I haven't called for more violence. Cutting off supplies to the civilian population of Palestine is wrong. Israel's response is likely to be disproportionate.

But do you unequivocally condemn Hamas?!?!?!" is a fake question that is only asked by deeply unserious people who are not interested in what is actually happening.

It's easy to condemn these recent incidents by Hamas and still think Israel oppresses Palestinians. For some reason you can't bring yourself to do it. Still in thrall to the Corbyn school of international relations I suppose, where showing any sympathy for human beings who are on the other side and criticising atrocities somehow means you aren't an ally.

Why wouldn't anybody unequivocally condemn Hamas? They are a terrorist organisation. They don't give a feck about Palistinian civilians or reaching a negotiated end to hostilities. They never have done.

You simply can't lift your gaze above your own petty grievances and bring yourself to condemn horrific war crimes without saying context.

By the magic of intersectionality and post colonial theory a Hamas henchman shooting little kids in the head and raping teenage girls is somehow 'punching up'.

 

[Ian H]

I haven't called for more violence. Cutting off supplies to the civilian population of Palestine is wrong. Israel's response is likely to be disproportionate.


It's easy to condemn these recent incidents by Hamas and still think Israel oppresses Palestinians. For some reason you can't bring yourself to do it. Still in thrall to the Corbyn school of international relations I suppose, where showing any sympathy for human beings who are on the other side and criticising atrocities somehow means you aren't an ally.

Why wouldn't anybody unequivocally condemn Hamas? They are a terrorist organisation. They don't give a feck about Palistinian civilians or reaching a negotiated end to hostilities. They never have done.

You simply can't lift your gaze above your own petty grievances and bring yourself to condemn horrific war crimes without saying context.

By the magic of intersectionality and post colonial theory a Hamas henchman shooting little kids in the head and raping teenage girls is somehow 'punching up'.

Condemning 'all violence' is unequivocal. Where's the problem?