Israel / Palestine

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winjim

Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
If your first impulse after 250 kids are shot dead at a festival is to add context rather than immediately and unambiguously condemn it as an atrocity, I'm not sure I can help you further.

I'm not required to condone or condemn the actions of Hamas any more or less than those of the Israeli government. And that's not what I'm doing. What I am doing is pointing out that the the situation, the balance of power, the conflict and the reporting of it, are massively, massively asymmetric.
 

C R

Über Member
To sum up so far:

Of course what Hamas have done is a bit beyond the pale...but, you know, the Israelis...

Meanwhile the death toll rises and non-combatant civilians on both sides will bear the brunt of it.

OTOH hamas being murderous lunatic arsëholes doesn't justify the collective punishment of the Palestinians. The same way that the red army acting like murderous lunatic arsëholes doesn't justify or is justified by the conduct of the German army during the war.

Regarding the rape claims, I haven't seen them reported by any reliable source, not even Israeli mainstream sources.
 

Rusty Nails

Country Member
On the other hand the US, Israeli, and presumably Iranian “defence” sectors will continue to do well, so there’s that.

Those sectors will always do well, as their counterparts in Russia, China and even N Korea have been doing recently over UKraine...not forgetting Iran..a double bonus for them.
 

Milzy

Well-Known Member
You need to look deeper into this. How did the best intelligence service and top military not know they were coming? No way they surprised them. People high up on the inside knew.
I would say the same global cult is puppeteering both sides. Hamas knows lots of their own innocent children will be killed now. They need to join together and oppose who ever really started it.
I’m going to throw out a guess that this may be a stepping stone to start war with Iran next. Global dystopia isn’t some conspiracy theory it’s just a possibility now.
 

C R

Über Member
You need to look deeper into this. How did the best intelligence service and top military not know they were coming? No way they surprised them. People high up on the inside knew.
I would say the same global cult is puppeteering both sides. Hamas knows lots of their own innocent children will be killed now. They need to join together and oppose who ever really started it.
I’m going to throw out a guess that this may be a stepping stone to start war with Iran next. Global dystopia isn’t some conspiracy theory it’s just a possibility now.

:banghead:
 

Cirrus

Active Member
OTOH hamas being murderous lunatic arsëholes doesn't justify the collective punishment of the Palestinians.
Unfortunately, it does.

As far as I can tell Hamas are the de facto leaders of Gaza, politically, it governs Gaza. Therefore they are acting on behalf of Gaza.

Attacking Israel in the way they have will lead to consequences that, presumably, they are happy for the Palestinians in Gaza to endure.

If one entity attacks another then there will be repercussions.
 

multitool

Pharaoh
Unfortunately, it does.

As far as I can tell Hamas are the de facto leaders of Gaza, politically, it governs Gaza. Therefore they are acting on behalf of Gaza.

There hasn't been an election in Gaza for 17 years.

Attacking Israel in the way they have will lead to consequences that, presumably, they are happy for the Palestinians in Gaza to endure.

Certainly. But what about the Palestinians?
If one entity attacks another then there will be repercussions.

Kind of what happened on Saturday in Israel, no?
 

Rusty Nails

Country Member
The Israel government is cruel and ruthless and always takes revenge. They were never going to sit back after these attacks, and I doubt the Israeli people would allow them to...and they have bigger and more weapons

Hamas know this well and clearly knew that there would be heavy retaliation by Israel in which there would be massive casualties in Gaza and other Palestinian areas. They do not care about civilian deaths and it would not surprise me if they banked on it with the aim of sparking more outrage and gaining the involvement of other Arab nations.

This is not going to be resolved without the active involvement of other nations and I hope this is not military involvement.

Events in Ukraine and now Israel makes the world a much more dangerous place.
 
Hamas flew paragliders into Israel. The IAF is bombing Gaza with JDAMs dropped by F-16s.
Bombing Hamas strongholds, considering the amount of reported secondary explosions there intelligence is correct. (secondary explosion indicates ammunitions exploding.)

Please don’t mention Wikipedia on here, it’s totally biased and compromised. Israel are the oppressors here.
Do you need wikipedia because your facebook experts let you down? If you would have payed a little bit more attention, or type in a other search term in wikepedia you would known that Jews see part of Palestine as their holy place, similar as Muslims see Mecca as their holy city. In the 19th century they reinforced/renewed/executed the plan to return to Zion with the intention of forming a state or region. They didn't do this by force, no sir, they had money so they bought as much land as they could get, both under the ottoman empire as later the British rule. But the existing Arab population did a Farage and didn't like them. Just as they didn't like them hundreds of years ago when they where driving out and killed in quite similar fashion as we see now.
So it is not quite as simple as looking at a map, the fact that 3 religions have some holy places. shrines etc. in Jersalem should be a giveaway too, the war between religions, arabs jews and others is far more complicated and his a rich history, surely the forming of the state Isreal didn't help on the other hand, if it didn't happened jews would be exterminated, as we have seen in the past few days.

To sum up so far:

Of course what Hamas have done is a bit beyond the pale...but, you know, the Israelis...

Meanwhile the death toll rises and non-combatant civilians on both sides will bear the brunt of it.
Hamas being a terror organization did everything to kill as much civilians as possible, you can't deny that based on what we have seen in the past few days, sure with the amount of bombing Isreal now does, surely enough civilians are gonna get killed too but there is an difference between invading and going house to house and shoot everything in sight and targeted bombings.
(and yes i known there is enough reported about Isreal alleged crimes on the past too, i condemn the just aswell alltoug it has to be noted that Hamas celebraties dead Isreali's and Isreali soldiers can be arrested and brought to court. that is a other difference)
OTOH hamas being murderous lunatic arsëholes doesn't justify the collective punishment of the Palestinians. The same way that the red army acting like murderous lunatic arsëholes doesn't justify or is justified by the conduct of the German army during the war.

Regarding the rape claims, I haven't seen them reported by any reliable source, not even Israeli mainstream sources.
Agreed however, how can they not? The only way would be to drive Hamas out and call it a day, but they known they will be back stronger then so they go the only way that works, be it for max 10 years or something. out of my head last time Isreal entered gaza and leveled all Hamas strongholds was somewhere in 2008
But the problem with Hamas is the same is in Iran but on steriods, if you remember a thing 5,6 years back Isreal blew up a communications tower, big media outrage because journalist worked there and blah blah blah. Fast forward few years later i stumble upon a podcast with a dutch journalist (Harold Doornbos) in which he says he heard from Collegues that Isreal was right to bomb that tower because they came across Hamas fighters in the building regularly. (and also revealed that they couldn't do their job unhindered there, anything critical of Hamas would get them in trouble.)

In addition a followed a blog of someone in Palestine from sometime what ever happened to that person god knowns, but he/she was gone all of the sudden. in which that person gave a picture how it is living under Hamas (spoiler very shitty) how they didn't want their children to be recruited but didn't really have a choice and how they planned to resist. There was also an insight in how and reletive managed to get an vium to live in Isreal and how that person considered live in Isreal so much better, despite being target of anger whenever an palestinian/Hamas attacked something close to there.

There are eyewitnesses who say he saw them rape death bodies, how much more evidence do you need?
 
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