Israel / Palestine

[winjim]

Yes, and yes...and so on and on and on and on and on.....................

OK, so Palestine has the right to self defence as Israel has the right to self defence. That does raise some issues though.

It supposes that 'Palestine' exists as an entity and that it is separate from Israel.
It supposes that the right to self defence is independent of anything that might be written in Art 51. Art 51 is part of the UN charter and applies to UN member states, which Palestine is not. So we can stop referring to it as the right to self defence exists without it.

Israel has the right to self defence.
Palestine has the right to self defence.
Israel has the means of self defence.
Palestine does not have the means of self defence because Israel won't allow it. So if it has the right but is unable to exercise it, does it have that right at all? Should it be provided with such an ability?


I have no conclusion to this, it's just some rambling thoughts I had.

 

[Rusty Nails]

OK, so Palestine has the right to self defence as Israel has the right to self defence. That does raise some issues though.

It supposes that 'Palestine' exists as an entity and that it is separate from Israel.
It supposes that the right to self defence is independent of anything that might be written in Art 51. Art 51 is part of the UN charter and applies to UN member states, which Palestine is not. So we can stop referring to it as the right to self defence exists without it.

Israel has the right to self defence.
Palestine has the right to self defence.
Israel has the means of self defence.
Palestine does not have the means of self defence because Israel won't allow it. So if it has the right but is unable to exercise it, does it have that right at all? Should it be provided with such an ability?


I have no conclusion to this, it's just some rambling thoughts I had.

These thoughts are fine and natural as long as one accepts this is life involving real, fallible humans and not a discussion in a university philosophical tutorial with no skin in the game.

 

[winjim]

These thoughts are fine and natural as long as one accepts this is life involving real, fallible humans and not a discussion in a university philosophical tutorial with no skin in the game.

Of course, although I do think it's worth noting that the right to self defence / Art 51 argument, like so many other aspects of this conflict, is incredibly one sided.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

The UN didn’t help anyone build tunnels. You really need to stop listening to whatever the voices in your head scream at you when stepping out of the shower.

Bullshit, Un kept supplying them materials while they knew or should have known they where used for terror tunnels instead of their intended use of rebuilding Gaza.
Same goes for the amount of children that dies because of the lack of clean drinking water, because Hamas stole the water pipes intended to supply clean drinking water and used them as rocket launchers. Un was tasked among other things with overseeing this actually got done. they didn't they have blood on their hands.

 

[AndyRM]

Bullshit, Un kept supplying them materials while they knew or should have known they where used for terror tunnels instead of their intended use of rebuilding Gaza.
Same goes for the amount of children that dies because of the lack of clean drinking water, because Hamas stole the water pipes intended to supply clean drinking water and used them as rocket launchers. Un was tasked among other things with overseeing this actually got done. they didn't they have blood on their hands.

Is your issue here with the UN or Hamas?

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Is your issue here with the UN or Hamas?

Why is it so hard to understand one can have issues with both? ok much more with Hamas then the UN but the UN did drop the ball massively in my view.

 

[AndyRM]

Why is it so hard to understand one can have issues with both? ok much more with Hamas then the UN but the UN did drop the ball massively in my view.

It isn't. You seem to be the one who is struggling.

 

[Mr Celine]

Of course, although I do think it's worth noting that the right to self defence / Art 51 argument, like so many other aspects of this conflict, is incredibly one sided.

Perhaps Israel should have exercised its right to self defence on October 7th.

 

[multitool]

The UN is a toothless tiger. Israel has been ignoring it's resolutions for over half a century.

Similarly, it will ignore all calls for ceasefire except from possibly the US. There isn't going to be a ceasefire, by the way, which is why expecting Starmer to smash his future relationship with the US over it is silly.

 

[newfhouse]

There isn't going to be a ceasefire, by the way, which is why expecting Starmer to smash his future relationship with the US over it is silly.

There isn’t going to be an end to all poverty either but I’d like the leader of the Labour Party to declare he’s against it.

 

[multitool]

There isn’t going to be an end to all poverty either but I’d like the leader of the Labour Party to declare he’s against it.

Hard to see an equivalence with two warring factions, both of whom are using the most extreme of violence.

Leaders don't really have the luxury that you and I enjoy of sounding off without much in the way of consequences. Leaders have to make balanced decisions with all sorts of relationships and factors at play. They have to weigh up the likely responses and effects.

It's a messy business, but that is the way of the world.

 

[Deleted member 159]

Gaza city encircled now. The squeeze begins

 

[cookiemonster]

The UN is a toothless tiger. Israel has been ignoring it's resolutions for over half a century.

Similarly, it will ignore all calls for ceasefire except from possibly the US. There isn't going to be a ceasefire, by the way, which is why expecting Starmer to smash his future relationship with the US over it is silly.

140 resolutions so far😥. All backed by the USA. How many other nations would be allowed to do that and commit war crimes?

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

140 resolutions so far😥. All backed by the USA. How many other nations would be allowed to do that and commit war crimes?

Palestine with their own un-department only difference they don't bother with resolutions they just look to other way.. and that's why we have 300kms of terror tunnels and children dying because of poor supply of clean water.

 

[cookiemonster]

Gaza city encircled now. The squeeze begins

Where have we seen that before in history? Oh yes, The Warsaw Ghetto.

Well done Israel. Using the same tactics that the Nazi's used in the 30s/40s.