Oh no!! Brexit not going quite as well as hoped

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deptfordmarmoset

Über Member
Ahh but you don’t understand “They” need us more than we need them. They will have accommodate us as a world power if they want to sell us their wine/champagne/brandy/cars/etc/etc ;)
And give us back their care workers! https://www.theguardian.com/society...o-be-ease-as-shortages-of-care-workers-worsen
 
D

Deleted member 49

Guest
View attachment 436

As a light drinker with a teetotal wife it would suit me if there was a smaller bottle, although 1/3 litre would be better. 50cl is far too small, although I do keep a couple of those for making risotto.
More you ?
437
 

farfromtheland

Regular AND Goofy
Sorry what is it being glossed over Immigration,wages ?
If people simply blame immigration for low wages something is missing in the reasoning surely? The left providing statistics that immigration is minimal is leaving open the implication that if it were higher there would be a problem.
And as I've stated over and over it was and still is the supermarkets commodity buyers and processors driving down returns for farmers growers and food workers.
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Spain Portugal South of France and Italy tend to use a lot of undocumented North African labour to bring us our 'cheap' food. Some of those workers have been brave enough to unionise, to get better pay and conditions. But in the main they keep their heads down, and put up with whatever is dished out to them. Poor wages were never a result of us being in the EU.
I don't deny the role of supermarkets, but something that is being glossed over is 'consumer' responsibility for low wages. If we buy from supermarkets, Amazon, use courier delivery - be it for food or luxury goods - we are supporting precarious low paid employment and can hardly complain that wages are too low. I am in the under twelve grand income bracket and if I can buy ethically sourced produce anyone can.

There is an unofficial work economy in the UK, less than it was, but still here in take-away food, delivery and construction. There are also grass roots unions growing, though this is an uphill struggle - sadly UNITE says the right things but relies on direct debits so not much use. It is very hard for undocumented workers to organise. It would not be so hard for EU migrant workers, yet too often they don't.

Why this should be is complex - I have some experience of a legacy anti-communist inspired anti-union sentiment, via an ex-housemate. Understandable perhaps given eastern European history. Having a history of liberation movements helps - this is probably why the latin communities working in cleaning have got somewhere - I also have a little personal experience here. In my opinion ex-commonwealth citizens are more likely to organise than eastern Europeans. I therefore wonder if this might be part of the background to the UK having favoured EU migration over historic immigration from places where we have a colonial legacy? Still the fake self-employment and zero hours culture is a huge block.

Unions could do a lot to tackle this if the will is there. Last time I was involved in a union struggle at work all the part-timers were made redundant while the union claimed 'no redundancies' and celebrated a pay rise. Ok this is one instance, but pretty typical I think. Then again IWW puts a three day working week near the top of the priority list. Is this utopean or practical? Both I think.
 
OP
OP
mudsticks

mudsticks

Squire
If people simply blame immigration for low wages something is missing in the reasoning surely? The left providing statistics that immigration is minimal is leaving open the implication that if it were higher there would be a problem.

I don't deny the role of supermarkets, but something that is being glossed over is 'consumer' responsibility for low wages. If we buy from supermarkets, Amazon, use courier delivery - be it for food or luxury goods - we are supporting precarious low paid employment and can hardly complain that wages are too low. I am in the under twelve grand income bracket and if I can buy ethically sourced produce anyone can.

There is an unofficial work economy in the UK, less than it was, but still here in take-away food, delivery and construction. There are also grass roots unions growing, though this is an uphill struggle - sadly UNITE says the right things but relies on direct debits so not much use. It is very hard for undocumented workers to organise. It would not be so hard for EU migrant workers, yet too often they don't.

Why this should be is complex - I have some experience of a legacy anti-communist inspired anti-union sentiment, via an ex-housemate. Understandable perhaps given eastern European history. Having a history of liberation movements helps - this is probably why the latin communities working in cleaning have got somewhere - I also have a little personal experience here. In my opinion ex-commonwealth citizens are more likely to organise than eastern Europeans. I therefore wonder if this might be part of the background to the UK having favoured EU migration over historic immigration from places where we have a colonial legacy? Still the fake self-employment and zero hours culture is a huge block.

Unions could do a lot to tackle this if the will is there. Last time I was involved in a union struggle at work all the part-timers were made redundant while the union claimed 'no redundancies' and celebrated a pay rise. Ok this is one instance, but pretty typical I think. Then again IWW puts a three day working week near the top of the priority list. Is this utopean or practical? Both I think.

100% 'the consumer' has a part to play in this.

But the too much power in too few hands multiples who control prices are most culpable.


Consumers understanding that on average only 8% of the farm gate price finds its way back to the primary producer , is powerful knowledge.

But those consumers need alternatives.

I agree the union organisation, and even the idea of cooperative working is anathema to many Eastern Europeans.

Collectivism, done badly, in a top down authoritarian manner, leaves workers no better off than any other totalitarian regime.



But genuinely grassroots up, worker controlled cooperatives, or producer to consumer set ups are becoming more common, as the problems caused by the current business as usual model , become apparent.

OTOH there are many in genuine poverty - caused by wage suppression alongside ridiculous property prices, who really need help, and have to use food banks and so on..

'Ironically' a good proportion of these people are working in the low paid food industry.

A three day week that funds the essentials, food housing and essential bills .

Do more if you want some 'luxuries' like meals out, and a fancy holiday.

If our high tech world can't supply this then it's very poorly, organised..

Almost as if wealth creation via capitalism, which requires poor people to exist, is regarded as more important than quality of life, environmental protection, and human fulfilment..

Almost as if.....
 
It was always destined for failure because of all the intrinsic contradictions, but to then entrust the negotiations to known incompetents and charlatans means that the country can’t even make the best of a bad job.

My guess is that the leavers that think it has gone badly are in two groups, the regretful ones that now recognise it was a bad idea, and those that still think we didn’t leave quite hard enough.

Is that about right? Are there any leave supporters that have a different view about what went wrong, or even want to explain why it is actually going well?
 

swansonj

Regular
It was always destined for failure because of all the intrinsic contradictions, but to then entrust the negotiations to known incompetents and charlatans means that the country can’t even make the best of a bad job.

My guess is that the leavers that think it has gone badly are in two groups, the regretful ones that now recognise it was a bad idea, and those that still think we didn’t leave quite hard enough.

Is that about right? Are there any leave supporters that have a different view about what went wrong, or even want to explain why it is actually going well?
Your analysis assumes rationality!

Don't overlook cognitive dissonance. When we discover that we've done something (in this instance, vote leave) that contradicts what our analytical mind tells is right (in this instance, that leaving is an economic disaster), we find it difficult to admit we've done the wrong thing, so we distort our perception of reality so that we can tell ourselves we did the right thing after all.

Hence the people who voted leave because they thought it would be economically advantageous, and are now saying it was never about the economy, it was about sovereignty, and not even about the supposed practical benefits of sovereignty, it's the principle.

And hence our difficulty in engaging in debate with unrepentant leavers, because the reality they allow themselves to perceive is actually different from the reality we observe.
 
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