Reform, and the death of the Tory Party

[Rusty Nails]

Honesty and integrity?, wasn’t she implicated in the Lord Ali freebies?

Still no definition of working class ?

If one is born working class, are you working class forever?, does one’s children inherit that status?

This seems to be a bit of a bee in your bonnet.

There are many definitions of working class, none exactly the same but with a level of similarity across them so that anyone using or hearing the term knows broadly what it means. That is fine as a socio-economic term if not a scientific one.

The world, and especially the world of work, is continually changing so the term "working class" is continually changing. Working class when you and I were young is different to how our children or grandchildren will understand it.

 

[BoldonLad]

Yes. She has singularly failed to employ her relatives, put in expenses to have her moat cleaned or a duck house built, failed to be caught watching porn in the chamber, failed to breach social distancing laws, failed to have an affair with / sexually molest / punch other MPs and has generally stuck with her principles and political beliefs rather than flip-flopping all over the place.


One could philosophise on that for a while. Being born working class presumably does colour one's approach to life, relationships and ways of working, not to mention political beliefs. Many would argue that Rayner is now middle class as her income would put her into that bracket. Others would argue that while money technically elevates your class, it is breeding that makes the change...

She was only in Government 12 months approximately, and didn’t even have a moat, yet, be reasonable.

Oh yes, it’s all in the genes.

 

[BoldonLad]

This seems to be a bit of a bee in your bonnet.

There are many definitions of working class, none exactly the same but with a level of similarity across them so that anyone using or hearing the term knows broadly what it means. That is fine as a socio-economic term if not a scientific one.

The world, and especially the world of work, is continually changing so the term "working class" is continually changing. Working class when you and I were young is different to how our children or grandchildren will understand it.

As a paid up member, I don’t want incommers lowering or raising our standards. 😊

 

[briantrumpet]

I reckon 'working class' is often used as a euphemism by many for not having gone through higher education / being perceived as poorly educated.

Paging Mr Chasey...

 

[Rusty Nails]

As a paid up member, I don’t want incommers lowering or raising our standards. 😊

I am happy to be called either working class or middle class. I came from a strongly working class background and family but I know that my younger self would definitely call my current self middle class. I am not at all bothered about this, and luckily there is no chance of me ever being called upper class.


View: https://youtu.be/HLoVF7vcBtY?si=Z-ub0An1ZdWCwAxZ

 

[Stevo 666]

But the point was, will prospective Reform voters and will the batshittery have put people off (or continue to do so longer term if Farage keeps giving the party fringes a platform)?

True, although batshittery depends on your perspective/where you are on the political spectrum and while a lot of posters in here may see Reform as in the batshit category, a lot of the voting public probably don't.

 

[Stevo 666]

UKIP were regularly polling in the high teens and even into the low 20s in 2013 and 2014 but ended up with one seat. Yes, Reform are considerably higher but I don't think it will necessarily equate to a large number of seats. I hope I'm right and not just being optimistic as I think governance of the country would grind to a halt with them in charge and trying to push through stuff that can't be done (then blaming everyone else for their failings). I'm sure they'll end up with quite a few more MPs though.

As mentioned above, as I am no expert in terms of predicting outcomes of GE's I've based my statement on what I've seen of the predictions from people or outfits whose job it is to predict these things. However given the changing political landscape including emergence of new parties, it's very hard to predict, especially this far ahead.

 

[Pblakeney]

I reckon 'working class' is often used as a euphemism by many for not having gone through higher education / being perceived as poorly educated.

“Working class” to me used to be people who worked on the factory floor, probably wearing overalls, or similar in the fields, out at sea, down the pits.
If you worked in an office then you were middle class, and if you owned the company then you were upper class.
Working practices have changed and the lines more blurred.

 

[Rusty Nails]

True, although batshittery depends on your perspective/where you are on the political spectrum and while a lot of posters in here may see Reform as in the batshit category, a lot of the voting public probably don't.

I think that may be because most people have no real idea of what Reform stands for other than the immigration issue, and sadly too many people agree with Reform's stance on this to write off their chances of electoral success in four years time.

People just want quick, populist answers, even if those answers have no guarantee of actual solutions.

 

[briantrumpet]

I think that may be because most people have no real idea of what Reform stands for other than the immigration issue, and sadly too many people agree with Reform's stance on this to write off their chances of electoral success in four years time.

People just want quick, populist answers, even if those answers have no guarantee of actual solutions.

The genius of Farage is that he convinces people that everything is terrible, comes up with a solution that makes it even worse, and blames the failure on everyone but himself. He knows exactly what he's doing. He authored Brexit, by creating the 'enemy' of the EU, now he's trying to get himself into power by creating an 'enemy' of people who want to come here and anyone who says his simplistic populist answers will be any more successful than Brexit.

I'm not sure whether it's worse that he's not an insane loon like Trump and Truss, but a calculating charlatan who lives off hate.

 

[Bromptonaut]

“Working class” to me used to be people who worked on the factory floor, probably wearing overalls, or similar in the fields, out at sea, down the pits.
If you worked in an office then you were middle class, and if you owned the company then you were upper class.
Working practices have changed and the lines more blurred.

I'll run with Marx. Those who work by hand or by brain.

 

[Shortfall]

True, although batshittery depends on your perspective/where you are on the political spectrum and while a lot of posters in here may see Reform as in the batshit category, a lot of the voting public probably don't.

Enough voters feel so completely ignored, let down and disappointed by so called mainstream politicians that they are prepared to vote for parties led by people like Trump, Farage and quite possibly the obnoxious Connor McGregor soon. It shouldn't be too difficult to deliver policies and outcomes that prevent these people getting a look in but here we are. In the UK's case we have uncontrolled immigration, a runaway national debt, crumbling NHS and infrastructure, borrowing costs higher than under the Truss government and a chancellor finding herself having to borrow just to pay interest on existing debt. The political and intellectual pygmies that brought the UK to this parlous state have only themselves to blame if they get thrown out of Downing St at the next election and it won't just be the likes of the much maligned "Daz" and the migrant protestors who are responsible for voting Reform in.

 

[briantrumpet]

Enough voters feel so completely ignored, let down and disappointed by so called mainstream politicians that they are prepared to vote for parties led by people like Trump, Farage and quite possibly the obnoxious Connor McGregor soon. It shouldn't be too difficult to deliver policies and outcomes that prevent these people getting a look in but here we are. In the UK's case we have uncontrolled immigration, a runaway national debt, crumbling NHS and infrastructure, borrowing costs higher than under the Truss government and a chancellor finding herself having to borrow just to pay interest on existing debt. The political and intellectual pygmies that brought the UK to this parlous state have only themselves to blame if they get thrown out of Downing St at the next election and it won't just be the likes of the much maligned "Daz" and the migrant protestors who are responsible for voting Reform in.

So no responsibility placed for the parlous state of the UK of 14 years of Tory government or Farage's Brexit. All Labour's fault. OK. Glad we've cleared that up.

 

[midlandsgrimpeur]

True, although batshittery depends on your perspective/where you are on the political spectrum and while a lot of posters in here may see Reform as in the batshit category, a lot of the voting public probably don't.

When I say batshittery I am talking about the fringe elements.

For example I am specifically referring to the cardiologist and anti vaxxer who delivered a speech at the conference where he claimed the cancer suffered by members of Royal Family was a direct result of having had the covid jab.

Another speaker who has been accused of Islamaphobia in the past wanted to take to the stage wearing a bejewelled purple burka and had to be talked out of it by Richard Tice.

Is that batshit enough for you? I am all for listening to people's legitimate concerns, but any voter that thinks either of the above is reasonable can't be taken seriously.

 

[Shortfall]

So no responsibility placed for the parlous state of the UK of 14 years of Tory government or Farage's Brexit. All Labour's fault. OK. Glad we've cleared that up.

I wasted endless pixels criticising the Tories on the BR forum and warned forumites that sending the national debt to North of 2.7 trillion in order to pay for lockdown and furlough was a bad idea. We all know what I got for my troubles so I don't want to rehash that debate or rake over the referendum again either. The Tories are responsible for many of our current ills and I don't absolve them of any blame (not sure what was in my previous post that created the impression in your mind that I was giving them a free pass). We are where we are. Labour claimed to have all the answers but they have singularly failed and have turned a dire economic landscape into an apocalypse.