Reform, and the death of the Tory Party

[matticus]

Enough voters feel so completely ignored, let down and disappointed by so called mainstream politicians that they are prepared to vote for parties led by people like Trump, Farage and quite possibly the obnoxious Connor McGregor soon.

That's the sort of thinking that leads to this:

View attachment 9868

 

[Pross]

That's the sort of thinking that leads to this:

And they'll never accept they were complicit and at least partly responsible for their injuries when the plane then crashes.

 

[Rusty Nails]

That's the sort of thinking that leads to this:

That’s the trouble with democracy. Your vote means the same no matter the sort of thinking that goes into it.
Politicians have to live with that knowledge and decide how much they are willing to compromise on their ideals to gain or remain in power.
Farage knows this and has no scruples and uses it shamelessly.

 

[Psamathe]

Reform UK would axe any high-speed northern rail schemes, says Richard Tice
A Reform government would axe any high-speed rail schemes earmarked for the north, the party’s deputy leader has warned.

Richard Tice said companies considering bidding for contracts should “not bother” as the party would “spend the money instead on things the country needs more”.

Wonder how voters from more northern areas will feel about this Reform "policy". To me I'd be seeing it as an indication of Reform's commitment to development of the North and about them being South/London centric.

 

[AndyRM]

Wonder how voters from more northern areas will feel about this Reform "policy". To me I'd be seeing it as an indication of Reform's commitment to development of the North and about them being South/London centric.

You say that, but this he's spot on here:

“Outside a bubble of politicians, journalists and construction industry lobbyists, the voters of the north do not want, and never have wanted, a handful of high-speed rail lines, serving a handful of big cities … They want the money to be spent on the often failing railways (and roads) that they actually use.”

Shaving a few minutes off the half hour it takes to get from Liverpool to Manchester is meaningless, it's the onward journeys that are the issue.

Of course, this wouldn't be a problem if the North had actually seen proper investment in infrastructure over the years, rather than being ignored and left to crumble.

 

[C R]

You say that, but this he's spot on here:

“Outside a bubble of politicians, journalists and construction industry lobbyists, the voters of the north do not want, and never have wanted, a handful of high-speed rail lines, serving a handful of big cities … They want the money to be spent on the often failing railways (and roads) that they actually use.”

Shaving a few minutes off the half hour it takes to get from Liverpool to Manchester is meaningless, it's the onward journeys that are the issue.

Of course, this wouldn't be a problem if the North had actually seen proper investment in infrastructure over the years, rather than being ignored and left to crumble.

That is true, but I doubt Farage or Tice care.

 

[Psamathe]

You say that, but this he's spot on here:

“Outside a bubble of politicians, journalists and construction industry lobbyists, the voters of the north do not want, and never have wanted, a handful of high-speed rail lines, serving a handful of big cities … They want the money to be spent on the often failing railways (and roads) that they actually use.”

Shaving a few minutes off the half hour it takes to get from Liverpool to Manchester is meaningless, it's the onward journeys that are the issue.

Of course, this wouldn't be a problem if the North had actually seen proper investment in infrastructure over the years, rather than being ignored and left to crumble.

I agree but also wonder about the interpretation of those in the north (given the long term under investment). Not so much about not having the High Speed lines but more emphasis of not providing something rather than providing investment. Different message from committing to widespread increased investment and adding a footnote about looking at the cost/benefits of high speed lines and whether that money could be better invested in other northern developments.

It's one reason why I'm personally not in favour of HS2, that for such a vast amount of money it benefits very limited geographical areas of Southern England.

 

[AndyRM]

That is true, but I doubt Farage or Tice care.

Nope, and I'm certainly not defending either of them. It'd be pretty funny watching them trying to fathom regional rail transport.

 

[AndyRM]

I agree but also wonder about the interpretation of those in the north (given the long term under investment). Not so much about not having the High Speed lines but more emphasis of not providing something rather than providing investment. Different message from committing to widespread increased investment and adding a footnote about looking at the cost/benefits of high speed lines and whether that money could be better invested in other northern developments.

It's one reason why I'm personally not in favour of HS2, that for such a vast amount of money it benefits very limited geographical areas of Southern England.

When I see an improvement in provision I'll let you know. Might be a while.

We do have new Metro's in Newcastle though, which is nice. Farage would probably be mad about them though because they were built in Switzerland.

 

[Psamathe]

We do have new Metro's in Newcastle though, which is nice. Farage would probably be mad about them though because they were built in Switzerland.

... and installed in the North.

 

[Pross]

You say that, but this he's spot on here:

“Outside a bubble of politicians, journalists and construction industry lobbyists, the voters of the north do not want, and never have wanted, a handful of high-speed rail lines, serving a handful of big cities … They want the money to be spent on the often failing railways (and roads) that they actually use.”

Shaving a few minutes off the half hour it takes to get from Liverpool to Manchester is meaningless, it's the onward journeys that are the issue.

Of course, this wouldn't be a problem if the North had actually seen proper investment in infrastructure over the years, rather than being ignored and left to crumble.

High speed lines free up capacity on the existing lines though. This is one of the things frequenntly missed in the HS2 debate when people talk about saving a few minutes on a journey from Manchester to London. Obviously it still requires an investment to be made to improve those local services on top of the HS services and that's where things fall down.

 

[Psamathe]

High speed lines free up capacity on the existing lines though. This is one of the things frequenntly missed in the HS2 debate when people talk about saving a few minutes on a journey from Manchester to London. Obviously it still requires an investment to be made to improve those local services on top of the HS services and that's where things fall down.

What is the increased cost to make the new line High Speed rather than standard speed? From memory (which may be wrong) the speed adds a fair amount.

Maybe one of the issues about HS2 in the initial justifications was how the speed was such a benefit saving people time so tey'd be getting more work. Only when people pointed out the flaws in that justification did those pushing for it to raise the capacity benefits.

 

[AndyRM]

High speed lines free up capacity on the existing lines though. This is one of the things frequenntly missed in the HS2 debate when people talk about saving a few minutes on a journey from Manchester to London. Obviously it still requires an investment to be made to improve those local services on top of the HS services and that's where things fall down.

Well exactly, free up capacity all you want but there's no point if there's nothing to take advantage of it.

 

[BoldonLad]

I'll run with Marx. Those who work by hand or by brain.

unless that was amended to read "those who work or worked by hand or by brain" wouldn't that mean Pensioners could not be "working class"?

One of several reasons why the term "working class" irks me is, one of my long term drinking pals held a very senior management role (working by brain?) but, not senior enough to be "top dog".

He thinks he is a Socialist, and, could not understand that to most of the others in the group considered him to be "one of them", and, not "one of us".

 

[BoldonLad]

Enough voters feel so completely ignored, let down and disappointed by so called mainstream politicians that they are prepared to vote for parties led by people like Trump, Farage and quite possibly the obnoxious Connor McGregor soon. It shouldn't be too difficult to deliver policies and outcomes that prevent these people getting a look in but here we are. In the UK's case we have uncontrolled immigration, a runaway national debt, crumbling NHS and infrastructure, borrowing costs higher than under the Truss government and a chancellor finding herself having to borrow just to pay interest on existing debt. The political and intellectual pygmies that brought the UK to this parlous state have only themselves to blame if they get thrown out of Downing St at the next election and it won't just be the likes of the much maligned "Daz" and the migrant protestors who are responsible for voting Reform in.

When reading this forum, I am regularly amused at the apparent assumption that even a significant minority of the electorate have any interest or knowledge of politics.

This lack of knowledge/interest can be seen in any TV quiz show where "Political" questions invariably defeat contestants.

A couple of days ago, during the height of the "Angela Rayner saga", daughter No 2 (a maths teacher, second in department, age 52, so, one would assume, hardly a "knuckle dragger"), asked me "which party is this Rayner woman with?", subsequent conversation revealed that she was only vaguely aware of who Kier Starmer is 😂